Pocket Listings Yes or No?

David Goldsmith

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And let me point out how the majority of sellers in Manhattan right now are expecting to get over market. I've never seen a down market where sellers perception was that they were "losing money" (even when they were selling for more than they paid, but that's a long different subject) where they didn't try to squeeze every last nickel out of a sale.
 

Noah Rosenblatt

Talking Manhattan on UrbanDigs.com
Staff member
You could ask various brokers you know if they specifically make that part of their pitch. For the sellers I have spoken to who have been pitched the concept, not a single one has said the agent pitching mentioned that. I don't think it's valid for agents to just assume a seller somehow knows it if they pitch all the alleged benefits and are silent on that drawback.
Never assume. Right. In a transactional marketplace, I would guess most of these situations prob play out like you describe here
 
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Noah Rosenblatt

Talking Manhattan on UrbanDigs.com
Staff member
And let me point out how the majority of sellers in Manhattan right now are expecting to get over market. I've never seen a down market where sellers perception was that they were "losing money" (even when they were selling for more than they paid, but that's a long different subject) where they didn't try to squeeze every last nickel out of a sale.
I think most buyers/sellers will ignore transaction costs when looking at pnl for re trades. Thats the killer and why you dont see much speculative short term flipping in this market. That and coop nature of our housing stock
 

MCR

Active member
I suspect there are some sellers who are unaware they are leaving money on the table, but nobody really cares about this on the high end. Do you see this going on with run-of-the-mill properties? That would be cause for concern for me from a consumer protection POV.
 

David Goldsmith

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I am seeing it pitched all across the spectrum.

1 example I saw today:
1 BR Coop on East 25th St for $829,000.
 
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Noah Rosenblatt

Talking Manhattan on UrbanDigs.com
Staff member
I suspect there are some sellers who are unaware they are leaving money on the table, but nobody really cares about this on the high end. Do you see this going on with run-of-the-mill properties? That would be cause for concern for me from a consumer protection POV.
right, the high end can care less. Great question on run of the mill side, we only have forums like these to hear about cases and situations. Like David mentions below...wish there was a way to track this somehow, so we have to just assume its out there and how prevalent I guess
 

Noah Rosenblatt

Talking Manhattan on UrbanDigs.com
Staff member
You could ask various brokers you know if they specifically make that part of their pitch. For the sellers I have spoken to who have been pitched the concept, not a single one has said the agent pitching mentioned that. I don't think it's valid for agents to just assume a seller somehow knows it if they pitch all the alleged benefits and are silent on that drawback.
Agree. Really need a batch of sellers for this survey. I feel if I ask my colleagues they will tell me half truths
 
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David Goldsmith

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Today I got an email with the attached. I think it goes to show the perception of how widespread very average properties are being marketed in this manner. It is my personal belief that it is not good for the market, is leading to more widespread lack of transparency, shows there is more excess inventory than recent reports would have us believe, will lead to further consumer distrust, and is something which needs to be dealt with.
 

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Noah Rosenblatt

Talking Manhattan on UrbanDigs.com
Staff member
Today I got an email with the attached. I think it goes to show the perception of how widespread very average properties are being marketed in this manner. It is my personal belief that it is not good for the market, is leading to more widespread lack of transparency, shows there is more excess inventory than recent reports would have us believe, will lead to further consumer distrust, and is something which needs to be dealt with.
Hmm, I see what your saying. Who is this being mass marketed too? I always wondered if/when a marketplace would exist where renters/sellers post their needs and the inventory comes to them, whether active or off market or planned or whatever.
 

David Goldsmith

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This is broker to broker looking for listings. Because rather than being readily available in a database they are being "pocketed." I find it interesting that for decades brokers have been pushing the advantages of a central repository for listings so consumers can find them, but now that they want to get an advantage they are coming up with ways to control the flow of information for their own advantage. And I believe a certain amount are being disingenuous trying to convince owners it is in their best interest to "pocket list" when in reality it's mostly serving the agent's agenda.
 

David Goldsmith

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To owners who think they or their property is so special that it needs to be on "super secret double pocket listing":
This is Jimmy Fallon's penthouse in an exclusive Coop on Gramercy Park. If this doesn't need to be some super secret "off market" listing, why does yours?
 

David Goldsmith

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"no bidding wars"
So they are promising to show these "off market" listings to only 1 potential purchaser? Are they abiding by the fiduciary duty to sellers?
I personally don't think this portrayal is genuine.
 

Rudi Hanja

New member
im sure Compass keeps a internal database of off-market properties available only to their own agents and buyers. if they can then sell those properties internally, Compass keeps both sides of the commission. they can also attract more direct buyers by promoting this "secret" inventory...if only Compass agents have access to this database, buyers are more likely to want to work with a Compass agent. hence, the push to get sellers to go this route..all part of a grand scheme to win market share.
 

David Goldsmith

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Wouldn't that run counter to both the REBNY UCBA and the NYS Dept of State feelings about dual agency, buyer/seller representation, etc?
 

David Goldsmith

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Pocket listings exclude minority homebuyers, Redfin CEO says​

Glenn Kelman wants a loophole closed in NAR’s Clear Cooperation Policy​

Off-market listings have long been a controversial topic, with agents who oppose them claiming they provide an unfair advantage to brokers at the top end of the market.
But Redfin CEO Glenn Kelman sees another problem: These so-called pocket listings also exclude minority homebuyers.

In an opinion column in Inman and in Twitter posts, Kelman wrote how brokerages often hold 10 percent of their listings off market, spanning cities like Chicago, Minneapolis and Columbus, Ohio.
“Study after study after study shows these excluded buyers are disproportionately people of color,” Kelman said. “This is why marketing every listing to the public isn’t just one way to make housing more fair. It is, according to housing scholars, the first principle of a fair market.”

In late 2019, the National Association of Realtors approved a measure that bans its members from taking pocket listings. The Clear Cooperation Policy requires brokers to submit a listing to a multiple listing service within a business day of marketing a property to the public. The policy is designed to even the playing field for all brokers and maintain the MLS as a one-stop shop, according to NAR.

But the ban had a loophole that allowed big brokerages to utilize pocket listings as “office exclusives,” Kelman said in his column on Tuesday. In a series of tweets Kelman sent the same day, he noted that agencies had taken advantage of that loophole.
“With competition fierce,” he said, an agent will utilize the pocket listing “to recruit new home buying customers. It’s hard to argue this benefits anyone but the agent.”

Kelman cited an analysis from his own company that suggests the share of off-market listings jumped by 67 percent from November 2019 — when Clear Cooperation Policy was approved — to March 2021.
He suggested NAR close the “office exclusive” loophole, and advised MLS platforms to limit how a home is marketed by syndicating data about listings without photos or price points.

Another alternative, he said, would be to require agents to share their listings with other agents if not with the public. Kelman supported Clear Cooperation Policy when it was proposed and made a similar call about opening up the market for more minority homebuyers at the time it passed.

The debate over pocket listings has been raging for years.

Clear Cooperation Policy took effect last May and soon after, NAR — the nation’s most powerful real estate trade organization — was slapped with two antitrust lawsuits. One of those suits was filed by Top Agent Network, a networking and communication platform open to agents that meet a certain criteria. Its founder, David Faudman, has said the rule could “destroy” his business and that NAR was “trying to eliminate competition.”

In December, one of the plaintiffs on the lawsuits, Pocket Listing Service, relaunched as a public-facing site. It will allow agents and the public to search exclusively for private listings after one business day.
 

David Goldsmith

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I seem to be getting an increasing number of emails from brokers asking for specific sets of "off market, coming soon or anything you may have on market" properties. Obviously there is a feeling that a non-insignificant part of the market can't be found any longer by doing a simple search.

Is this an improvement in how the market functions? Are we losing 3 decades of improvement in market transparency? Are buyers and sellers really being served by this?

Also, can we trust the statistics of how many units are on the market when they are being undercounted (and unknowable).
 

David Goldsmith

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‘Whisper listings’ complicate red hot middle-class housing market​

Once a marketing tool reserved for press-shy billionaires and celebrities, as well as developers of country club-like super towers such as the Robert A.M. Stern-designed 220 Central Park West — which saw record sales, including a deal for $238 million, despite never publicly listing a unit — the trade in off-market homes is now affecting every sector of the housing market, including middle-class city apartments and suburban abodes, brokers told The Post.

In a slow market, sellers and agents need to get the maximum number of eyes on a property to achieve a top price. That also benefits homebuyers who want to peruse listings and price compare.

But in a bullish housing market, where listings are scarce — inventory plummeted more than 38% year-over-year in the New York City region, according to a recent report by Norada Real Estate Investments — sellers no longer need to aggressively market.

Instead they hope to create an aura of exclusivity around their property and cash in on quick as-is deals, without the hassle of staging and hosting open houses.

Buyers, on the other hand, will shop off market in hopes of dodging bidding wars, which have become commonplace in the hyped-up post-pandemic real estate investment free-for-all.
 

Noah Rosenblatt

Talking Manhattan on UrbanDigs.com
Staff member

‘Whisper listings’ complicate red hot middle-class housing market​

Once a marketing tool reserved for press-shy billionaires and celebrities, as well as developers of country club-like super towers such as the Robert A.M. Stern-designed 220 Central Park West — which saw record sales, including a deal for $238 million, despite never publicly listing a unit — the trade in off-market homes is now affecting every sector of the housing market, including middle-class city apartments and suburban abodes, brokers told The Post.

In a slow market, sellers and agents need to get the maximum number of eyes on a property to achieve a top price. That also benefits homebuyers who want to peruse listings and price compare.

But in a bullish housing market, where listings are scarce — inventory plummeted more than 38% year-over-year in the New York City region, according to a recent report by Norada Real Estate Investments — sellers no longer need to aggressively market.

Instead they hope to create an aura of exclusivity around their property and cash in on quick as-is deals, without the hassle of staging and hosting open houses.

Buyers, on the other hand, will shop off market in hopes of dodging bidding wars, which have become commonplace in the hyped-up post-pandemic real estate investment free-for-all.
cant this just go away?
 
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