Secular Bull Market For Treasuies Over? Gold Tells?
A: If it is, that means an extended period of rising rates for borrowers. I can't help but get that long term 10YR US Treasury chart that Jeff wrote about in late March out of my head. The secular bull market for US treasuries is close to the 30 year mark now and the run was nothing short of spectacular; marked by the culmination of fear in late 2008 sending 10-yr yields plunging down close to 2%! It was the two month period from November and into December of 2008 that saw truly mind boggling moves in the ten year - reflecting the extreme environment at the time. Its timely to discuss this again because about 16 months later, 10-yr yields are now at the same levels they were before that volatile period. Which brings us to whether the secular bull market for US Treasuries is over, issuing in a new stage of end game?
Is the long gold / short treasuries texas hedge the trade of choice right now? With gold showing great strength even as the dollar rises against other major currencies, it should be crystal clear that the precious metal's demand is less of a US dollar hedge thing and more of a hedge against global fiat currencies thing. The comment thread in the last gold discussion over a year ago (I try to limit these discussions to once/twice a year) brought out lots of emotions and arguments supporting the rise of gold as an inflation-dollar destruction hedge only relationship. I tried to explain my view in the simplest terms:
"The gold rise is NOT a US dollar hedge here. Gold is finite, and paper is unlimited. In a world of printing presses, they cant print more gold. Worldwide Govt's/CB's are facing the same severe deflationary winter; and reacting in same way. Runaway Inflation is a dream ways off. Can gold rise at the same time your dollars gain purchasing power? Yes."Even Soros recently announced a 152% increase in gold holdings as he anticipates the UK to further devalue their currency. It seems to me a rise in yields will likely be accompanied by the surge in gold that many of the gold bugs out there have been waiting for; and at some point it may even get silly/parabolic.
The recent strength in gold prices makes me worry about whether the rise in yields has entered its beginning phase? If so, its something that borrowers will have to adapt to for many years to come. The NY Times discusses: "Consumers in U.S. Face the End of an Era of Cheap Credit":
Even as prospects for the American economy brighten, consumers are about to face a new financial burden: a sustained period of rising interest rates. The shift is sure to come as a shock to consumers whose spending habits were shaped by a historic 30-year decline in the cost of borrowing.Clearly the bond king thinks an adjustment is under way for treasury bonds and that the era of cheap money will certainly over; by looking at his portfolio he is putting his clients money where his mouth is. But are we prepared for this? In my opinion, no way! Especially the younger generations that turned into first time borrowers in the past 4-5 years and only know a world of ultra-cheap money. Geez, it was only 8 years ago when I took out my first loan at an interest rate of 7 1/8% and thinking 'I did great on my rate'! My how times changed.
“Americans have assumed the roller coaster goes one way,” said Bill Gross, whose investment firm, Pimco, has taken part in a broad sell-off of government debt, which has pushed up interest rates. “It’s been a great thrill as rates descended, but now we face an extended climb.” Nine months ago, United States government debt accounted for half of the assets in Mr. Gross’s flagship fund, Pimco Total Return. That has shrunk to 30 percent now — the lowest ever in the fund’s 23-year history.
My questions on these topics right now are:
How long can the fed constrain borrowing costs and when will market forces at the longer end of the curve start to behave independent of fed policy?
Is now the time to buy treasuries, in anticipation of a reversal in asset prices after the historic rise?
How will the world perceive $1,500 gold if the precious metal starts to go parabolic? Will we mis-interpret the signal as a hyperinflation threat sending bond yields surging?
If we have an adjustment in treasury yields, will it be fast & furious to the new level or slow & methodical as the fed would like?
The fed ended their US treasury borrowing program at $300bln, surprising the markets when it was announced? Was this intentional and do they see a need in the future to use these final QE bullets to support treasury prices if a selloff does occur?
How will buyers in the fastest and greatest real estate markets in the country react if borrowing costs do adjust higher? At what level will it start to mean something? 5.5%? 6%? 6.5%?
Will Howard Lutnick be proven right on his call of a constraining of treasury yields in 2011 or 2012 as the second wave of the credit crisis hits home - sending yields lower and killing the short treasury bets?
DISCLOSURE - I only have 2 longer dated gold calls right now. I sold my GLD position and shorter term call options about 5 months ago with the hope of buying back in at lower levels. That did not happen and I never got back in. With gold rising as the dollar rises, its just another sign of strength for the precious metal. Watch for a breakout over 1,220/oz or so.



Posted by mh23
Sun Apr 11th, 2010 11:18 AM
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Posted by mh23
Sun Apr 11th, 2010 11:25 AM
Noah:
Great post. I sold my Euo and UUP when the Euro got to 1.35 two weeks ago, so I missed out on some of the move down, but I just got frustrated on the tight trading range. I have owned some GDX for a while but I bought some GLD last week after it crossed 1140. I believe it will break 1200 on this run up and 1500 is not out of the question. On another note I also like oil via the drillers, refiners and diversified energy names. While I am less bullish on oil than gold, oil seems in the sweet spot in the sense that when economic numbers come out that look good the whole "recovery" narrative pushes oil higher and when numbers are week people anticipate zirp for a longer period of time and that weakens the dollar. I would be looking to take profits at around 97.
Posted by robny
Sun Apr 11th, 2010 12:19 PM
I still dont see how gold is anything other than a currency hedge? I am more interested in the correlation gold may have with rising rates as I plan to buy in the next year and higher borrowing costs are my main concern right now.
Posted by anonymous
Sun Apr 11th, 2010 10:17 PM
Please don't turn this into a day trading blog
Posted by MeekSheep
Sun Apr 11th, 2010 11:23 PM
Anyone notice the prevalence of new "Cash for Gold" shops going up everywhere? There's commercials for them all the time. It's stupid. That sure says to me gold is going to be the next bubble.
Posted by Noah
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 03:15 AM
"Please don't turn this into a day trading blog"
here we go again. you know, real estate doesnt change daily and it gets boring discussing actve inventory every single day..dont worry, this blog will ALWAYS be focused on Manhattan real estate. I just need a break every once in a while to discuss other topics of interest OR need to add more writers to add new angles.
If anyone knows willing and unbiased agents to spend time writing, please contact me!
Posted by anonymous
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 09:39 AM
On a side not, PIMCO just publicly stated that investor demand should keep mortgage rates low in the absence of Fed buying because small increases in yield will attract new investors. I was a little surprised.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601208&sid=aBLqrobWYWr8
Posted by Fred
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 11:11 AM
The amount of debt that Treasury must issue, frankly, I think doesn't compute for most folks. Real rates are headed higher. If you want to verify it, just look at real rates for short term money on the commercial RE side. Everyone is a hard money lender now. Equity return expectations are even higher (obviously).
While gold is interesting Noah, it seems that the real trade is silver, platinum and palladium - stuff that actually gets consumed with rising manufacturing output. Your comment about PMs decoupling from FX changes is spot on. Money flow is clearly moving into PMs in general.
Posted by Erick
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 11:38 AM
To anon:
If you want to talk real estate, we can talk real estate so we can spice things up and drive up the # of replies - besides, it is relevant, since we talk interest rates :-)
I bought a 950 sq ft 2 bed/1 bath for $880K on the UWS (an estate sale at a prime area, mid 80s, ps9 / ps87, a block from the park and the Natural History Museum) two years ago and I refinanced my $410K mortgage earlier this year @ 4.75 fixed for 30 years....My monthly mortgage is abt. $2,100/mo and my maintenance $893/mo....Peanuts! I just filed my taxes and I am getting back from Uncle Sam $8,250 (federal and state)...(what you hear from the back is me laughing to all the renters :-)
Am I getting affected by this jump on the interest rates? No! Am I planning to move? No! In fact, I can buy cash the 1 bed next door to my apartment when I add another member to my family :-)
So it is not that great being a renter after all!
How else do you hedge inflation? IMO, Gold, Commodities and Real Estate (as long as you have the cash and it makes sense to the individual's situation).
Cheers!
Posted by Noah
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 11:55 AM
Thanks for the personal story Erick and I love hearing how owners took advantage of record low rates to refi and tax benefits of owning. Owners are charged a tax to own, so the tax benefits at end of day are certainly something that should be looked at.
In regards to anon, I know there are those out there that feel the same way he/she does. But this topic is very real estate relevant, especially for this fast paced and pricey marketplace. Its relevant just like the ABX indexes starting to really plunge around OCT 2007:
http://www.urbandigs.com/2007/11/aaa_abx_index_plunges.html
I got those same types of comments back then too in late 2007, as readers wanted real estate stories, not credit event stories. Hopefully now, after seeing the trickle effect the credit event had on our marketplace and the world, they will understand why its ok to talk about this topic every now and then on a Manhattan real estate blog.
Posted by anon
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 12:25 PM
Erick - I will be there to buy that 1BR next to yours, all cash, for $5000 more than what you can pay. Why? Because by renting now I'm saving a truckload of $$$ that I would have been wasting on interest payments and maintenance, well in excess of my current rent (yes, even factoring in tax savings). Guess what that $$$ did for me in 2009? It was up 30+%. This year so far it's up 10%.
No complaints from renters! ;o). Best of luck.
Posted by anonymous
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 01:05 PM
Erick,
you definitely got a great mortgage and maintainence deal. However, you need to consider what you would do with the almost 500k of equity that you paid into place from your down payment and principal payments. It could be invested elsewhere earning a return. Also, interest rates do matter very much to you. If they go up substantially, real estate prices will be affected. If you you decide to trade up, you will need to pay higher interest. The upside is that the more expensive apartment would probably lose value more quickly than a cheaper apartment in absolute dollars. Not saying that renting is necessarily better, but you should consider all costs.
Posted by anonymous
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 01:09 PM
Fred,
Why cherry pick commercial RE rates? This may be one of the weakest debt markets now and the real rate is more a result of the perceived credit risk of that market, not macro interest rate trends. I think rates will go up too, but I would look at a broader range of high quality assets in addition to some of the more questionable quality assets to get a better picture.
Posted by Erick
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 01:21 PM
anon,
it looks to me as "smart talk" - you know, the one "oh I am investing in the market and not on a depreciating asset, I am saving money, etc" and at the end of the day many of the renters can barely make their rent...
The higher interest rates will affect your rent down the road...I do not know when but I can assure you that the landlord will pass his increased cost to you when he sees the opportunity to do so....I am done with the interest rates for the next 30 years...
I gave you a concrete example and your reply was b/s talk...Obviously, everybody is entitled to his/her opinion but I would expect a counter argument with numbers, not just talk....
Regarding the maintenance charges, as you see, I am getting a big chunk of them back from Uncle Sam..
Rgds,
Posted by Erick
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 01:51 PM
anon #2:
Yes, I agree with your comment but investing in my apartment made sense since I do not plan to move...
Posted by anonymous
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 02:59 PM
I don't see why many think that higher owner costs will automatically be passed onto renters. I believe that landlords are always trying to maximize the rents that they charge based on market demand. So if they are already at that maximum, there just won't be any more demand to raise prices unless somehow higher interest rates sparks demand for renting. However, the opposite may be true as higher interest rates tends to hurt most people and may lower demand. If properties are still profitable, there still could be supply to meet demand. If higher costs hurt profits then it might just be the valuation of the property that has to give.
Posted by nycjoe
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 04:27 PM
I find it interesting that those who say renting is better than owning consistently use the same logic. Common assumptions:
-Noone's rent can ever increase. Higher landords' carrying costs won't be passed on to tenants because that would drive demand down- and if demand goes down in Manhattan, renters will just move to Newark.
-Rising interest rates will exist in a vaccum, and won't ever be accompanied by consumer spending, better employment figures, and/or inflation. If rates rise, it will make owning unattractive and therefore everyone will want to rent- but without, of course, creating demand for renting that would increase rents.
-It's ridiculous to own because most people are savvy enough to make a better return on other types of assets, all of which are guaranteed to perform better than real estate over the same period of time.
-There aren't any benefits to owning your home instead of renting it. You may make renovations to your liking and upgrade appliances as much as you want, when you want, and your landlord will subsidize all of it.
-Historically, your rent can only be reduced at lease renewal time. You can safely assume you'll be within your monthly budget year after year, so plan with confidence.
-Because of the bubble we just experienced, an increase in RE prices going forward will never be possible.
Posted by Erick
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 05:39 PM
I agree with what Noah has said at a previous post: it is better to be a renter short term and a buyer long term....
Being a long term renter, you will definitely see your rent increase over time and you cannot have fixed costs (vs having a 30 year fixed mortgage)....
Being a short term buyer, you are screwed if you try to flip your property and make a ton of money within a short period of time (1 to 2 years)..
If you plan to stay at your property for 7-10 years, you should buy...Whoever bought 10 years ago can definitely sell for a profit in today's market...
On a totally separate subject, Dow ended above 11000 for first time since 2008....
Rgds,
Posted by DG
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 05:55 PM
Wouldn't increase in rates put downward pressure on RE prices? I think this complements your previous topic about prices being kept artificially by various stimulus. Well, one of them is unreasonably low interest rates. No surprise here. As far as gold goes, speculation and market sentiment plays as much role in price fluctuations as fundamentals. I don’t think the discussion is very relevant in this forum.
Posted by Noah
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 06:18 PM
whats relevant is interest rate topics. Its likely bond yields and gold will both rise together considering the environment we came from. Just my gut. Unless of course another panic ensues and there is a flight to safety of treasuries.
In regards to higher rates and landlords passing that on to renters, I think its only passable if the market can withstand it. And at some point it will become destructive to its own cause bringing on demand destruction. Landlords can try to pass it on, but market can absorb only so much. Thats the quandry of what we may face. The unknown of course is what the market can bear. I hope landlords out there are protected from future IRR!!
Posted by jeff
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 07:44 PM
I have been pleasantly surpised by both the market's appetite for U.S. Treasuries and for mortgage debt (sans Uncle Sam's support). If anything, this is another example of the "zero sum world" we live in. Today, U.S. Treasury debt and even mortgage debt appears to be attractive to some people relative to other assets - shorthand for "the Chinese government has nowhere else to put their money". Interestingly, at the same time AAA corporate borrowers can now borrow at better rates than Uncle Sam in some instances....so those who have other choices are exercising them and creating a highly unusual situation. My guess is that if the gold market was 1,000 times bigger it would be running away to the upside as China would shift as much of it's incremental investing to gold as it could without murdering it's treasury holdings. But alas their is really no market big enough to hold China's cash and the gold market is way way too small. The yen market isn't particulraly attractive given it's low yields and demographic and credit risks, while the Eruo zone is also problematic. So the U.S. continues as the ultimate Donald Trump, too big to fail, too loud to ignore and the beneficiary of an un-even playing field (yes China we can play at that game too). I am a believer that bonds are entering a secular bear market, yet excess productive capacity in world economies will allow central banks to continue to lie about inflation for now. But let's face it, there is a huge shortage of raw materials from oil to copper to agricultural products facing the planet in the intermediate term. I'm long COW (hogs and cattle ETF) this market has low inventories (farmers killed off their herds in the last few years as feed prices were stubbornly high and demand for meat fell) and it takes a couple of years to grow new inventories. I still hold a little gold as an inflation/deflation fear hedge and bubble asset. Most other materials....which China buys....have seen a huge surge in prices while inventories have also moved up...maybe excepting met coal. China is working hard to slow their empty building growth and calm inflation some, which in the short-term dosn't bode well for Aluminum, Zinc, Nickel, Scrap Metal, Steel, etc. I think they will still be quite stimulative of car buying so platinum and palladium are probably okay.
Posted by Noah
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 07:48 PM
JEFF!!! A JEFF SIGHTING!!
Posted by UPennAlaskan
Mon Apr 12th, 2010 09:51 PM
Gold and Equities both still rising. Treasuries, corporate debt, and commodities continues to hang in there and maintain pricing levels. Watch the VIX too, it will slowly lull you to sleep as it scrapes the low teens. Low teens, hello! Everything almost makes perfect nonsense. Dangerous times. I just wish i knew which asset class is very terribly mispriced.
Posted by Jay
Tue Apr 13th, 2010 04:02 PM
Gold is for traders, not investors.
Posted by Thisson
Tue Apr 13th, 2010 05:38 PM
Robny: gold has an inverse relationship to interest rates. As interest rates increase, the opportunity cost of holding gold increases.
Fred: Supply is only one part of the equation. What happens to demand? I predict interest rates stay low or even get lower. Why? Because in deflation, income becomes more scarce and thus in more demand. Those dependent on fixed income need yield. 4% in treasuries looks pretty good to them during deflation. Plus, what happens if equities take a dive? What happens if there is a foreign sovereign debt crisis? A flight to safety trade could lower treasury yields further, despite record issuance.
Erick: sounds to me like you overpaid to the tune of nearly $300k. I wouldn't be so quick to laugh at the renters. The late 2004 price of a 2-bedroom, 1 bathroom in a luxury doorman building in my neighborhood, with about the same square footage, PLUS significant outdoor space was $590k. Since then interest rates have declined as well. For example, you can refinance through HSBC on a 30 year fixed for 5.25% (was about 7% for a 30 year fixed in 2004, if I remember correctly). Cheers!
Gold: I think the price will come down. I like it long term as a way to prevent government wealth confiscation. Other than that it's a non-productive asset, but a good insurance policy against a worst-case-scenario.
Posted by gretta
Wed Apr 14th, 2010 03:58 PM
were it not for the Federal reserve monetizing fraudulently (in secret)everything and certainly treasuries the rates would already be higher.
But higher they will go, rates will rise and this will crater the RE market as well as the bond market. the result will be a flight from bonds to commodities and particularly gold.
Gold is in a secular bull.
GOLD IS IN A SECULAR BULL!!!
(in case you didn't notice).
The easiest money is made in a secular bull.
Posted by Thisson
Wed Apr 14th, 2010 05:03 PM
If you think rates are going up, how can you think Gold will outperform? They usually move inversely.
Gibson's Paradox:
http://www.gata.org/files/gibson.pdf
Posted by gretta
Thu Apr 15th, 2010 10:26 AM
what matters in gibson's paradox is REAL interest rates, not nominal. rates will rise but still with a lag from REal inflation (not CPI).
Nominal rates rose throughout the 70's and gold too (real rates were negative though).
At the time they called bonds "certificates of confiscation". No need to mention how real estate and stocks perform in that environement.
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numbers come out that look good the whole "recovery" narrative pushes oil higher and when numbers are week people anticipate zirp for a longer period of time and that weakens the dollar. I would be looking to take profits at around 97.
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