A Rush Away From $$$? Gold Percolating...
A: When I talked about gold as an anti-fiat currency trade, rather than a hyperinflation trade, it sparked a wide range of emotions from people. For some reason when you talk about gold it seems either you are a gold bug or a gold hater, and no matter what you argue people will hold on to their beliefs. But when you start hearing talk of Arab states switching to a basket of other major currencies for pricing oil trades, it kind of makes you wonder what is going on out there. Either way, it is making the gold markets percolate again as fears of a currency crisis may ultimately become a self fulfilling prophecy.
I first want to re-iterate my thoughts on the gold trade, going back to "How IN Is Gold":
THE CORE OF THE GOLD TRADE LIES IN THE DEBASEMENT OF ALL FIAT CURRENCIES TO COUNTERACT THE GREATEST WAVE OF CREDIT DEFLATION SEEN SINCE THE GREAT DEPRESSION.By the time inflation does become an issue, perhaps in a few years, gold will already have made its move. It will power the next phase of the move. That is when you will hear talk of gold having been a leading indicator of inflation, so look at what gold is trying to tell all of us!
My deep down opinion is that gold is performing how it should, at a time when general confidence in fiat currency is declining. In my humble opinion, the gold trade is not a hyper-inflation trade right now, but more of a lack of faith in paper money/fiat currency trade that ultimately could test its inflation adjusted high. Those in it now for the inflation hedge, are along for the ride as the world united battles deflationary forces.
For the next few years while global fiat currencies are systematically debased, via central bank printing to counteract local slowdowns, the future whiplash-inflation trade (maybe 2012-2013) will be slowly building as the Kondratieff Winter plays out. It seems logical that the gold trade is a multi-year trade; if it doesn't get parabolic too early.
Now we start to hear about "The Demise of the Dollar" by Robert Fisk over at The Independent:
In the most profound financial change in recent Middle East history, Gulf Arabs are planning – along with China, Russia, Japan and France – to end dollar dealings for oil, moving instead to a basket of currencies including the Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, the euro, gold and a new, unified currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council, including Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait and Qatar.Sounds very conspiracy theory doesn't it and Mish is already beating it down is pure silliness:
Secret meetings have already been held by finance ministers and central bank governors in Russia, China, Japan and Brazil to work on the scheme, which will mean that oil will no longer be priced in dollars.
The plans, confirmed to The Independent by both Gulf Arab and Chinese banking sources in Hong Kong, may help to explain the sudden rise in gold prices, but it also augurs an extraordinary transition from dollar markets within nine years.
Saudi Arabia, China, Japan, and any other country can hold whatever reserves they want in whatever currencies they want regardless of the pricing unit of oil. Reserves are based on trade relationships not pricing units!Mish always makes a strong point, but stranger things have happened to cause a future domino effect.
Pricing oil in Euros (or even sillier - a basket of currencies) will not cause anything to happen. If pricing unit changes do happen, they will be a result of sentiment changes in regards to existing dollar hegemony and not the other way around. Dollar Armageddon is not coming over a pricing unit, nor did the US invade Iraq for that reason. The story is nothing meaningless hype.
Then Bloomberg picks up the piece, "Dollar Falls on Report Gulf States May Stop Using Greenback":
The dollar declined against 15 of its 16 most-traded counterparts as Asian stocks rallied and the Independent reported Persian Gulf states along with Japan and China are discussing dropping the greenback for oil trades, citing unnamed sources. The yen rose after Japan’s finance minister said he told Group of Seven leaders that weak-currency policies were undesirable.This is when just talk can rattle markets and ultimately become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe it doesn't happen, I dont know, in fact I have no clue what these guys are talking about. Seems like a red herring to me. But maybe that doesn't matter. Maybe the end result can happen anyway just by pure momentum sparking a chain reaction of events. Maybe Jim Rogers was right that there would be a currency crisis by the end of 2009.
Meetings to discuss the transition have already been held by finance ministers and central bank governors from Russia, China, Japan and Brazil, the newspaper reported.
“The very fact that such an idea is being entertained is undermining the dollar,” said Dariusz Kowalczyk, chief investment strategist at SJS Markets Ltd. in Hong Kong.
I find it interesting how gold is performing well in almost all fiat currencies. I find this chart that plots gold's performance relative to a basket of 8 currencies.Those currencies are: 1) Australian Dollar; 2) Canadian Dollar; 3) Swiss Franc; 4) Eurodollar; 5) British Pound; 6) Singaporean Dollar; 7) Japanese Yen; 8) US Dollar:

"Relative to other currencies, gold continues to outperform. The red vertical line was the first positive reading from the indicator after about 10 months of being negative. This was 10 weeks ago and gold was trading at $960 an ounce."So lets see, the dollar crashes, cost of imports go through the roof, we can't buy that much stuff anymore, and that works out how for the rest of the world? Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmm. There is a reason I think that the first bout of inflation will be in the form of higher food, energy, raw commodities, metals, health care, etc..the stuff that squeezes profit margins and consumers wallets; right when unemployment is likely at or near its peak.
Crazy times.



Posted by Parasite
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 09:30 AM
I don't understand your obsession with Gold.
Is it because you bought a block of the stuff and are now having doubts?
Let's move away from your personal matters and focus on real estate and the stock market?
Posted by Noah
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 09:39 AM
lol...yes I bought 3K worth of a gold bar, and I want to move the gold markets. you got me
real estate is still active, stocks are rising. there ya go
Posted by amused
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 09:58 AM
The pattern with goldbugs is as follows:
- they buy gold (gold looks pretty)
- they put their gold coins/bullion "someplace safe", then, on quiet nights, pull it out and admire it (gold looks pretty)
- they think to themselves "who'll be laughing when the apocalypse comes?"
- they are ignored, so they keep to themselves. But when gold prices go up due to retail buying, they emerge from their shells with long-winded overwrought theories about the end of currency (and the world) as we know it.
- they are ignored/ridiculed again (see Lance Lewis, Minyanville, who is a widely-acknowledged dolt/gold cheerleader)
Agree w parasite - Noah, your audience is too uninterested/smart for this gold crap. Count your coins at home, but keep to the real estate.
Posted by Noah
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 10:21 AM
good to know, but 90% of content here is on Manhattan real estate / macro. out of 12 months, maybe 3-4 discussions are on gold?
give me a break guys. I cant talk about real estate every single day, it would drive me nuts. Already I am at a loss of new topics to discuss.
perhaps you guys can give me feedback on what real estate topics you want me to write something on and my opinions?
That would be helpful. Im too busy with clients and building a new system for you guys to research like a was a year ago for brand new topics. Help me out.
what do you want to see discussed here? thanks
Posted by Noah
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 10:39 AM
let me ask you something, and besides I did not write this as a personal matter - its a topic that interest me...gold goes nuts, perceived inflation threats rise, how does that affect the mind or confidence of a buyer that may look at real estate as a hedge against inflation?
you know my thoughts on Manhattan real estate as a hedge against inflation:
http://www.urbandigs.com/2009/03/is_inflation_good_for_manhatta.html
You dont see any potential connection whether you buy into inflation argument or not? Im still in deflaton camp, and think that any future inflation will be the crunching kind, not the kind that sees wages spike and credit go parabolic with lending out of control.
How will buyers view this topic? Are there buyers out there that put inflation concerns at least somewhere in their buying formula? Im sure most are buying a home because they need a place to live and prefer to own rather than rent. But I ran into at least 12 or 13 buyrs in the past four to five months alone that mentioned to me they want some protection against inflation and that is playing a role in their buy vs rent decision making.
Posted by Jay
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 10:47 AM
What I don't understand is how you separate gold from fiat currencies. Sure gold makes for nice jewelry, shiny minarets, non-corrosive electrical connectors and reflective astronaut helmets but otherwise, what is the value of gold? Maybe we should call gold a fiat commodity.
Gold's main draw is that historically it has been valuable. Since it is fairly rare and most of it sits around collecting dust, it doesn't take much demand change to move it's price. I attribute most of the recent gold move to the ease of investment afforded by the Gold ETFs.
Posted by AA
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 10:54 AM
Hey Noah, since you asked what you'd like discussed on this forum, I have an idea on a topic if you have the time to research. I've read many comments on this blog that imply that the buy vs rent equation is skewed highly toward the rent side, implying that real estate in NYC has further to fall. In my limited experience (the one bed that I rent out), it seems to me that it makes sense to buy. I'm wondering if this rent v buy situation is out of whack at the high end and is skewed to the buy side at the sub $1ml price point. If so, this would help people thinking about buying or waiting based on the type of place they are looking for. If you could break this sort of research up by area (Chelsea, UWS, etc), that would be especially helpful. Does this request make sense?
Posted by Noah
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 11:02 AM
Jay - i view gold as an alternate form of money, the anti-fiat currency. Now, that is not to say I view gold as currency in the sense that you will buy food or goods with gold coins and bars. Not at all. But for this situation, I view it as an alternate form of money that is disconnected from the liabilities and counterparties and political risks that paper money is exposed to. Thats all. I think there will be consequences to policies taken to stem this crisis, and a drive to gold will be one of the side effects. Look at the deficits we are running up. The fed will continue to monetize the debt.
You cant print gold, so no, we cant call gold a fiat commodity. Fiat currency is backed by nothing other than the trust and confidence in the governments that issue it. Gold is finite. Cant print gold.
I dont think we are going back on gold standard and I am not a gold bug. I just happened to like the asset class given the unique situation that the US and the world experienced and the policy reactions to stem the debt-deflationary crisis.
Yes I get gold as a hedge against inflation and a weakening currency. But that is where Im torn. You see, my dollars can buy 25-50% MORE house and 30% more stocks or so today than it could only 2-4 years ago. So where is the inflation? In a fractional reserve lending system, credit needs to expand for inflation to be a real threat and clearly that is not the case right now or for the past year or two. Credit is contracting and multiplier effect has plunged. So our system is not working as designed as it works off the excess that has taken place over the past decades.
Yet gold is now at a new record, non inflation adjusted one though. Is it inflation that is causing the runup?
Gold discussions spark emotions and people automatically think conspiracy, manipulation, etc..I dont buy into any of that junk. I simply think the demand for gold will rise as an alternative store of value when central banks around the world are monetizing debts and printing money to try to inflate our way out of a deflationary episode. Its the anti-paper money trade and if it gets silly, which I think it will, fundamentals will go out the window and trading dynamics will kick in. Those same trading dynamics that made oil go from 100 to 145 in about 3 months time in 2008! Clearly that was speculation and not a demand phenomenon.
see, i enjoy these discussions even with those who have way different beliefs
Posted by Jay
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 11:26 AM
To me gold is backed by faith and confidence of those buying it. :) But I think we understand each others points.
I would like to second AA request. I'm looking at 1BRs (doorman) and I don't see that there is much to rent at prices that I buy for. What keeps me from buying (now) is that I see things falling further in the next year or two.
Posted by Noah
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 11:44 AM
jay - well, all assets are priced based on the confidence of those buying it, to a point. Markets can get irrational so that is something that is hard to quantify.
AA's request is a good one. Im of the belief Manhattan will need its own buy/rent formula and that using a standard metric for this market will leave many scratching their head. For residential that is. Commercial and income producing properties are a different animal and more straightforward. But when talking about someone buyng the asset for primary residence, other variables come into play.
If you use standard formulas, you will likely find that Manhattan is almost always overpriced, yet the market still trades? There should be a premium for this great city, I just dont know what it is.
When I have time I will research it more and try to write about it.
ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS ON TOPICS? I find these very helpful for me. Honesty, I wrote 4 articles directly on Manhattan real estate in the past few weeks. I need to see where the demand is for more specific topics like AA suggested.
thanks
Posted by Chris R
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 12:26 PM
It's funny what a bunch of scared little monkeys we are. Scrambling around scared because of a rumor.
Now we all huddle around some shiny stuff we pulled out of the ground.
We really are a bunch of monkeys.
Posted by Noah
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 01:14 PM
lol chris..not sure if its fear or just media fascination with yet another asset class making new highs. If it was oil, it would be front page news. Stocks, always news. Housing, well, we that happened already. Now its gold. Same bullshit, different asset class.
Posted by Rolfe Winkler
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 01:42 PM
Funny to me that folks would accuse gold bugs of acting irrationally, but they ascribe real value to pieces of paper in their pocket. We only do that because everyone does it, not because those pieces of paper are actually valuable. Look, as long as the currency is credible we can keep up the charade.
But take a gander at a chart of the total private and public debt in the U.S. and you get a sense for why perfectly sane people find it prudent to pull 5-10% of their capital out of the system and park it in gold.
http://bit.ly/Zpkld
Posted by Fred
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 02:30 PM
Noah - re: Gold, you said: "I view it as an alternate form of money that is disconnected from the liabilities and counterparties and political risks that paper money is exposed to."
I agree that part of the answer to the madness lies in the sense that gold is somehow detached - but it is the perception of that which counts. The reality is gold isn't disconnected from counterparties and political risks. The biggest political risk of all would be a central bank simply deciding to sell its stockpile, flooding the market. That would be a political risk. As for counterparties, the GLD is a nifty way to get exposure but what if the manager defaults? What if the vaults actually don't contain the correct amount of physical gold?
The point is there is always risk in owning a financial asset and gold is no different because most folks don't own the physical - which is an entirely different topic. BTW, the physical gold guys also own machine guns, huge water tanks on compounds in remote places with nuclear fallout shelters! Just kidding, sort of.
I think part of this discussion should be on gold as a metal and then to contrast gold with other metals, in particular industrial and rare earth metals. Copper, for example, has far outperformed gold hand's down. So has platinum. I think the essence of the gold thing is it is a hedge but the fact is, there are probably better hedges out there. It's a lot easier to take the same risk and own a diversified miner like FCX, which benefits tremendously from this gold bug syndrome. Food and agriculture also come to mind. But I digress. One more point, depending on how you calculate your returns in gold, you are stuck translating back into a currency. If you owned the GLD in a Euro account this year, you've made a lot more than if you held it in NYC in a USD account. So, unless you are going to buy gold bars and then fly around the world depending on the global FX rates, you are really in the currency speculation business which means that the proper "anti-fiat" is actually a basket of tradeable currencies that are actively rebalanced depending upon your point of view at any particular moment. It's terribly complex and I am not sure worth the time. Afterall, you kind of get USD diversification just owning blue chips with major overseas exposure, like KO or XOM or IBM or MSFT.
Posted by winnie
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 02:32 PM
Noah, totally agree with you that the rent/buy formula does not quite work when you're purchasing as primary residence especially in Manhattan. It's a different story when you're purchasing a place as an investment.
As for suggestions on future topics, it'd be nice if there's an article on how the zoned school districts work in nyc, e.g. are kids automatically guaranteed a spot if they live within the district? What happens if class size gets too large? Will there be some sort of lottery or admission tests if that happens? Although not directly related to real estate, it does impact how important the availability of good public schools is when making an apartment purchase.
Another potential topic might be how taxes that are assessed on co-ops and condos are calculated, how they determine the value of the property and how we know, if we are purchasing an apartment, that the taxes have been represented correctly.
Posted by Fomer Seller
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 04:20 PM
If we ever reach a point where any person's wealth is measured mainly by accumulated gold, I'll have started a commune in the wilderness well ahead of it (let me know if you want in).
Posted by the Arab
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 04:32 PM
Noah,
I live in Raleigh NC. The only reason I visit your site is for the Macro/stocks/commodities etc... I don't care a bit about Manhattan real estate. You turned me onto Mish. Gold is relevant b/c there is no such thing as diversity of diversification of portfolio...everything goes up together and plummets together. When in recent history can you recall stocks, T-bonds, corp bonds, commodities, arts, wine, real estate ALL appreciating together. They will crash together again ....Mish is a deflationist and and I tend to agree. Everyone is looking for the NEXT BUBBLE...but what is missed is that the next bubble is here and it is every asset class. FED money printing has caused EVERY asset class to rebound significantly....temporary inflation until they all come crashing down once the Central Banks begin raising rates again...
Ali...
Send me an email.... I'll give you my number and we can talk. I'm Iranian...lets show the world Jews and Iranians can live together...
Shalom!!!!
Posted by Former Seller
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 04:33 PM
Noah, another topic suggestion, should be an easy one for you to write about as I'd imagine it fits your day to day experience.
I've been following for a year now but don't remember seeing any topics dedicated to particular areas, and how they contrast with the rest of the city. For example, what are the buying trends in the UWS vs UES? What areas are gentrifying most sharply? Which ones are falling on hard times? How are demographics changing in an area? How is downtown being affected by the changes (or lack therof) on Wall St.? etc, etc.
Posted by Noah
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 04:33 PM
ha, right...its just a trade fellas! The world needs another bubble, and my bets on metals.
im not one in charge so Im just a helpless observer
Posted by AvUWS
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 05:05 PM
Hi Arab,
I have a Q for you... I thought that Persians and Arabs didn't look to fondly on each other. Or are you an ethnically Arab Iranian?
Salaam
Posted by ali
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 05:18 PM
I'm Persian but many ignorant people think I'm an Arab or Mexican or Hawaiian, Greek, Jew..... Yah. I'm a Jew and My name is "Ali"..... I'm not prejudice and carry no biases in general.... I thoroughly enjoy a good conversation and good read from intelligent and educated people. In the age of the readily available education (high school, comm. college etc) and the internet..it still astounds me how ignorant and people are. I've been reading your blog for years...my Jewish wife does not understand my fascination with Bloomberg or Blogs such as yours. I rarely post on a blogs but when I do I like to play the Arab angel...especially since most of the people I read are Jews.... Mark Leibovit is good so is Ben Maller.... Got some a Great Disc at this Muslin Shop in Boston back in '92...the Complete Jewish Party Music....Hah...Oy, vey
Posted by Santa Cruz
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 05:26 PM
My bet is on metals also. Been that way. As macro is recent study for me...5 years or so, I am still learning, so I'm wondering what everyone thinks will be the most affected asset class to fall once inflation is battled by higher interest rates. Of course we are probably in a bubble on all asset classes now, but one's gotta fall the hardest, no?
I am from Bolivian descent. Evo Morales hates America, but I don't. Maybe us latins, arabs, americans, and jews can all get on the phone and smoke the peace pipe. Noah, I think you need to change your homepage title tag to "Macro economics and world peace". Hasta Luego :-)
Posted by Noah
Tue Oct 6th, 2009 05:29 PM
"Noah, I think you need to change your homepage title tag to "Macro economics and world peace". Hasta Luego :-)"
ha...anyway to answer your question, treasuries will fall. But whether a 2nd wave (prime, commercial, private equity LBOs, etc) hits at that time it may constrain yields and drive a flight to safety once again. Who knows.
Posted by Jay
Wed Oct 7th, 2009 08:16 AM
Here's a suggestion (although perhaps you already wrote about it and I missed it?): A piece on mortgage rates, where they are/where they're going, their relation/disconnect to 10 year Treasuries, jumbo's vs. conforming and, most especially, how rising rates in the future (we all expect that, right? :) ) will affect the low end of the Manhattan market.
Posted by Bart
Wed Oct 7th, 2009 04:27 PM
Although I come to this blog as a primary source for New York real estate, I enjoy the erudite forays into other macroeconomic and financial topics. I always know I'll read great, relevant, and insightful real estate news. And I enjoy have a person with a keen mind and love of granular detail offer insights into other asset classes such as gold.
I'l keep reading.
Bartmann
Posted by Noah
Wed Oct 7th, 2009 05:01 PM
love it..thanks Bart!
Posted by In Debt We Trust
Wed Oct 7th, 2009 06:06 PM
Instead of gold, why not talk about the vix instead? After all, volatility in markets can reflect volatility in real estate sentiment among buyers and sellers.
So far the vix has held a range of 22-30 for the past 3 months. In a liquidity driven environment, the bears have been beaten back everytime the vix hits 29 or so.
Posted by Thisson
Thu Oct 8th, 2009 12:01 PM
In my opinion these are all good topics.
Re: gold, I just want to point out a couple of things real quick that I learned from reading MISH and certain academic papers posted online.
1) Gold is a poor inflation hedge.
2) Gold tends to perform best when markets, in general, are doing well!
3) Gold price has an inverse relationship with real interest rates.
4) Gold is at nominal highs, but nowhere near the inflation-adjusted highs it reached in the 1980s. The prices in the 1980s would be about $2000 or so in today's dollars (remember the Dollar has declined a lot this year, compared to other currencies). So by some measures, gold is still cheap.
5) Gold ownership is a vote of "no confidence" in fiat currency. Trading in gold, without fractional reserve banking, would transmit 'efficient' pricing into markets, instead of the distorted pricing we have due to fed money printing and arbitrary interest rates, all of which lead to malinvestment (but I digress...)
6) The problem with gold - it doesn't provide a real return. An ounce of gold is an ounce of gold, it's not a productive asset that generates income, and wealth comes from saving up income and generating returns on productive assets.
6) Gold will always have value to humans because it is the most "hoardable" metal. Quite simply, some number of people will always lust after gold. ("My preciousssss" haha).
I believe we are in deflation, and that all asset classes will suffer as the deflation continues to manifest itself. I would expect, during deflation, that nominal gold prices would decline (and that the dollar would appreciate).
I believe that real interest rates have declined, and that this is what has supported gold prices so far, along with premature inflation concerns. However, I expect real interest rates to increase as deflation continues.
My measure of the Real Interest Rate = 30yr T-bond yield - CPI (-1.5%)(but because I believe CPI is mistated by Government, I prefer MISH's CPI that substitutes Case Shiller for Owners Equivalent Rent). In deflation, CPI is negative, which means Real Interest Rates tend to increase.
I don't see anything wrong with having a small portion of your savings in physical gold - it's always nice to have a secret stash of something the Government doesn't know about, whether it's gold or whiskey or guns anything else for that has some intrinsic value.
I hope these points help anyone who considers investing in gold. Now back to Real Estate? :-)
Posted by stephane
Sat Oct 10th, 2009 10:33 AM
when you say that gold is going up as a lack of confidence in fiat, I agree. when u say "and not as a precursor of hyperinflation" I disagree: why?
Because hyperinflation is ALWAYS a result of a sudden lack of confidence in the fiat (a non linear event).
Gold is THE current bull market, so wether people like it or not, it is the place to be (like in stocks from 1982 to 2000).
Gold is money and a currency.
Hyperinflation/lack of confidence happens quickly (non linear),usually in the middle of a deflationary collapse, the corollary of which is a currency collapse. protection REQUIRES an alternate solid currency (not debt based) and that's gold. nothing magic about it.
Got gold yet?
Posted by stephane
Sat Oct 10th, 2009 10:48 AM
You asked for suggestions.
1)a very intersting topic is the real price of real estate as in not the nominal, nor CPI adjusted....but gold adjusted. GOLD/home price or more classicaly (why? i dunno)Silver/home price.
2)I only live part time in NY where I landlord. I also landlord in Paris and Midwest. There is a cycle of prices from the west to the east(NY) to London to Paris (for ex NY is 2 years ahead of Paris). I have made millions from this.
The reason?: liquidity followed by psychology as fullfilling feed back loops. That is worth investigating. then u can laugh when brokers tell u NY is so special and the foreigners will keep the market up, NY never goes down.
Garbage and delusions.
3) The BEST hedge against inflation/hyperinflation...is not gold/silver...not real estate....but..............
YOUR MORTGAGE (a put on the dollar)