Noah's 2009 Predictions

Posted by Noah Rosenblatt on December 24, 2008 at 9.56 AM

A: Lets keep the tradition going and I apologize in advance for the length of this, hopefully you can find 5 min to read it all. Here were last years predictions for 2008, published December 27th, 2007; if you haven't read it yet and are new to this blog, please try to read it before continuing so you can see where I was right, and where I was wrong. I recall when I published those statements about 12 months ago, many accused me of trying to take down Manhattan real estate, and of being too doom & gloom so 'either I should blog and be gloomy, or I should be positive and sell real estate', emails. Just goes to show both the positive sentiment & denial in place at the time, when everyone thought the fed's rate cut fueled equity rallies were signaling hope. Anyway, we are at now now, stocks fell 40% or so, oil down 65% or so, housing deteriorating to depression-era trends, Manhattan's downturn came on fast.....so what's next? It's a game right, so I'll play and keep the same format as last year so we can go back and analyze later on.

manhattan-real-estate-predictions.gifNATIONAL HOUSING - Building on last years 'end of 2008' prediction, I think the worst is almost over for the rate of declines for housing markets across the nation. I think the 'L' shaped cycle will be close to the bottom of that 'L', by the end of 2009, leading to a few years of muddling around. Real estate is local and properties vary greatly, so to generalize here is to really tie any prediction to the health of the overall economy and general confidence. Lets not forget that it is all about the buyers when it comes to any local housing market!

I expect the rate of deterioration for most markets to slow as 2009 gets into the 2nd half, causing some major media sites to at least rationally discuss a stabilization in very hard hit markets. Hindsight will probably show a 40%-60% peak to trough correction in many markets when all is said and done (w/ distressed and foreclosed properties overshooting to the downside), so predicting this exact number now must have a wide range to it; we are not at the bottom yet but when we realize a bottom is in place, the market will already be recovering.

Buy side psychology for most conservative investors that have not purchased yet, but plan to, leads to a desire to buy an asset that is appreciating; or at least not depreciating at spectacular and uncertain rates. What I mean is, in general most conservative investors choose not to buy a depreciating asset unless the 'buy' decision is very one sided. Right now I think the mid sized private investors are buying up the majority of distressed/foreclosed assets so the question becomes, when will the general masses start buying:

a) they WANT to buy real estate again
b) feel CONFIDENT enough to buy real estate
c) can AFFORD to buy real estate again
d) can SECURE FINANCING to buy real estate again

It is likely that two out of the above 4 dynamics come into place during the course of 2009. I doubt all four will. The healing process after this housing collapse will be slow and most markets will in hindsight see an 'L' shaped adjustment in prices, with the bottom of the 'L' muddled for a few years. During this time sales volume will still likely be low, putting the most pain on those sellers that have a time pressure to move the property. However, it is very possible that the course of 2009 sees the highest level of fierce sell side competition in many local markets during this adjustment phase. I'm not saying this means a new bull market, it doesn't. I'm simply saying that the most distressed markets, with the most sell side competition, with the highest level of overall fear, may be nearing its peak of their local down cycle. From a risk/reward standpoint, if the property is income producing, in good shape, and in a solid town, well it could prove to be a solid investment. If anything, be a mini expert on your local market and keep tabs on the fierceness of sell side competition, for signs of opportunity.

I expect most markets to see average declines of another 8%-12% during the course of 2009, as the credit crisis finishes its wrath of doom.

MANHATTAN RESIDENTIAL REAL ESTATE - First off, when reading the new articles (trust me, there will be plenty of them now that downturn started) that come out calling for a bottom in Manhattan RE market, ask yourself if that same source discussed in advance the current downturn we are in now; chances are they never saw it coming. To defend a bottom or to call for a recovery based on assumptions that have not occurred yet, is quite silly. If they didn't see it coming to begin with, how can you rationalize a recovery with no fundamentals to back you up? There will be a time for a recovery, but for now, lets KEEP IT REAL!

Interesting to look back to my 2008 predictions for this one:

"As wall street falls, so will confidence and demand on the buy side for Manhattan real estate products. At the same time, we will see more types of sellers contribute to inventory builds toward the end of 2008; speculators, foreign buyers flipping, second home's selling, and struggling buyers who bought a bit more than they can chew or whose job security has changed to the negative. While we won't see a crash by any means, I think sellers will find that its a bit harder than they thought to move their property above last years comparable sales."

I certainly didn't expect the illiquidity to hit until 2009, so that was a bit of a shock as the fall of wall street occurred so fast; that is why I didn't expect the downturn to hit full gear in 2008! Nevertheless, the market became very illiquid around mid SEPT, with the fall of Lehman & gov't rescue of AIG. Here is the deal, buyer confidence started to decline around AUG 2007, so by JUNE/JULY of 2008 I started to notice 'Low Ball Bids & Cold Feet'; the market really slowed when it became so illiquid starting around mid September, with a noticeable buyers strike.

On to 2009, I expect this market to remain very illiquid. Its mid December now that I write this, and it will be published at year end, right before the so called 'bonus season' hits. Umm, not this year! As I stated early 2008, the 2009 bonus season is the one to worry about now that wall street is all but dead. Expect bonuses to be down about 50%, and this is not counting those that won't receive any bonus or got fired before they could receive a bonus. Retention bonuses & top performing PMs will be the most common bonuses, and I just don't see that money rushing back into the Manhattan residential housing marketplace; that is if the recipient doesn't own a home already.

I expect 2009 to be a dark year for Manhattan's real economy. The after effects of the credit crisis and the death of wall street will really hit home in 2009 as consumers tighten their belts; especially at the higher end. We will see massive job losses in the financial sector as forced mergers close and I think frugality will consume most of us that live here. The combination of:

a) job losses from financial sector and ultimately from real economy (retail, restaurants, etc.) in Manhattan
b) negative wealth effect from stock selloff
c) frugal mentality
d) deteriorating buy side confidence
e) lack of speculative buying
f) lack of foreign buying as credit crisis hits their local economies
g) continued tight lending standards
h) media enhancing the slowdown as reporters 'report' on lagging price data and low sales volume

...will continue to dampen buy side demand. Bids will come but the market will likely remain illiquid, and as a result I think the adjustment will continue to occur. For those arguing that supply plays a more vital role in this market, just look what happens when bids stop coming in! It's all about the buyers; always was, and always will be. It doesn't matter if there are 8,000/9,000/10,000 listings on the open market, your property is worth only what someone is both willing and able to pay at any given time.

For a real time guess on where we are right now, I put the deals being done right now down around 15%-25% from peak levels (peak being deals signed into contract in early/mid 2007). The large range is a result of the variable quality of product here in Manhattan + the fact that the downturn started earlier than most would like to admit. If we are down 10-15% since September, then I would say we were down 5-10% already before Lehman failed and AIG was rescued!

Cookie cutter and un-renovated properties, with few exceptional sell side features will be hard sells in an illiquid market and the seller is likely to eventually bite and 'hit the bid' received just to move the property. Chasing the curve and increasing sell side competition eventually hits seller mentality; it's just a matter of when they reach that breaking point and want to move the property. Unfortunately, many sellers who have been on the market for 4+ months already, likely received an earlier bid at or near their current asking price, but didn't accept it because of when the bid was received and how far from ask it might have been at that time.

For sell side, I expect 2009 to see rising inventory as both desired and forced re-sales hit the open market and buy side demand stays dampened. For the 4Q of 2008, I would not be surprised to find out that sales volume was down 40%-50% or more from previous year's level. I expect 2009 to reveal who is swimming naked, who is overexposed, who is over-leveraged, and who was a speculative investor that just took on too much riding the Manhattan gravy train; illiquidity brings this out - when the money stops flowing in and selling ain't so easy anymore. Clearly anyone that stuck to the statement that 'Manhattan real estate never goes down' & 'Buy Manhattan now or be priced out forever', has been proven very very wrong. Manhattan's real estate market is a market just like any other and as such is not immune to macro economic forces. If anything, 2008 has proven that being on top of your macro game would have kept you ahead of the curve in terms of the current slowdown now upon us.

With that said, everything has a price and this adjustment is all about price discovery. We are in that illiquid part of the process where price discovery ultimately surprises us, yet only the guys that transact and appraise the property know where the deal was done; UNTIL IT CLOSES. After the closing takes place, the world discovers the price and issues in the next level of price discovery that will set the new benchmark for comps and pricing analysis. The downturn is defined.

The key to 2009 will be the severity of:

1) job losses
2) illiquidity of the marketplace

..on buy side confidence. If we see job losses exceed even the worst of expectations, and buy side demand deteriorates further, this market could get even more illiquid and fierce sell side competition will likely arise. Once this happens, its fairly difficult to reverse course without any fundamental reason to draw buyers back to the market in mass. That fundamental reason usually is noticeably lower prices. Higher property taxes to fill budget gaps are also likely to play a role in this adjustment.

In short, if we are down 15%-25% right now from peak, I would expect 2009 to continue this downtrend and likely see prices fall another 10%-15% on top of where we are right now, by years end. That would make the range between 25%-40%, a wide one yes, but one certainly possible for this type of residential market with such a wide range of quality of product. The reason lies in the vast difference in product features including:

a) location
b) park/river views
c) outdoor space
d) prewar style - fireplace

etc., just to name a few. High quality products will retain value a bit better during the down cycle, than properties with no light, no view, plain layout, and just OK location. However, the high end is more susceptible to an illiquid marketplace due to the nature of this downturn and the kinds of jobs lost with the death of wall street. All in all though, no product type will be immune to this downturn. How fast a property must be moved will become central to 2009's level of sell side competition. If 2009 is the year that sees the distress really come out, then we should expect at least some level of fierce sell side competition as the cycle progresses here in Manhattan. After all this is a wall street city facing a wall street centered crisis.

Taking a step back for a moment, we are in the initial snap down from peak right now, and this is the fastest and most furious phase of the bubble correction (when the bids just seem to disappear, so to speak). By Fall of 2009 I would expect the majority of the furious initial adjustment to be complete and price drops thereafter to slow in pace and be more dependent on the level of desperation of the seller. Just like nobody could tell exactly where the top would be, nobody will be able to tell if we ultimately overshoot on the downside either.

As we near 'fair value' or what buyers perceive as 'fair value' for Manhattan properties, we will see sales volume start to stabilize; in the end I expect more of an 'L' shaped adjustment in prices. Right now we are trying to find that base of the 'L'. I don't buy into a quick 'V' shaped adjustment & recovery because of the nature of this recession and uncertain level of regulation coming to the credit markets. I often ask myself, what fundamentals are near that will drive real buyers back into this marketplace en masse, willing to pay a time premium again based on comps. Right now the only silver lining I can find is in ultra low interest rates as a result of fed meddling; and (a) I think this is temporary and not without its risks that I get into below, and (b) I don't think this overpowers the negative fundamentals causing buyers to remain sidelined and sellers forced to move property. You can't force buyers to buy and you can't force lenders to lend. As long as this market remains illiquid on the buy side, a negative time value is likely to be placed on open market properties and loan appraisals; which in essence, defines the down cycle.

My concerns beyond this lie in the perceived quality of life and the actual quality of life here in Manhattan, as the side effects of budget gaps ultimately result in service cuts and higher taxes. These effects that are perceived by families w/ kids, speculative investors, current homeowners, foreign demand, future buyers, etc.. won't be clear until 2010 or 2011.

THE FED - Well, there is no more room left to cut rates. The fed will be forced to engage in more lending facilities and quantitative easing from this point out to address the crisis/slowdown. Expect it to possibly expand to home builders, commercial, credit cards, student loans, auto loans, etc., as everyone looks for a piece of the TARP pie. I really wonder whether a very big bank will have to be nationalized or not; Citigroup being the biggest question mark. For 2009, here is what I expect:

1) Second round of TARP will be used like the first, most going to inject capital directly into the major banks. The remainder, say $75Bln-$100Bln, may be saved to help other sectors, smaller banks, big developers, autos, homebuilders, and whoever else they decide to be worthy of taxpayer rescue.

2) Obama's fiscal stimulus will be near $1Trln, and will focus on jobs, infrastructure, homeowner relief, foreclosure relief, some pork, and who else knows what sector they feel like including. As with most gov't packages, we must question how efficiently funds are applied, used, and when the goals of the program are actually achieved. Will it take 6 months, 12, 18? In the meantime, how deep does the recession get?

3) TARP II or RTC like program to directly take on distressed assets from the big banks? As the first $700Bln goes to recapitalize, and the next phase has the fed focused on getting the system interested in taking on riskier assets by driving up treasuries, the final phase may be to rid the balance sheets of the spreading toxic assets. Lets be real, as the problem spreads to alt-a, prime, helocs, credit cards, auto loans, lbos, option arms, etc.., more and more assets are becoming toxic as deflation continues. The final phase may be to just transfer these toxic assets from the banks to an RTC like vehicle. I'm not for gov't intervention, just telling you what I think is possible. Maybe this program is another $700Bln, who knows.

Ben wants to inflate, and is famous for his 'printing press' speech. The real question is how deep the quantitative easing becomes, and how much uumph they pump directly into the system. As this money goes in the front door, the shadow banking system is seeing the destruction of assets through the back. So, looking at a chart of the adjusted monetary base surge is kind of misleading. The 18 credit facilities were more to liquefy the markets so they remained operational.

I will keep an eye on the slowdown in velocity of money, adjusted monetary base, and reserves held by depository institutions throughout 2009 to see how this unprecedented fed actions hit the money supply, how often money is used within the system, and for banks reserves. There are no free lunches, and ultimately the fed will have to wane the system off these measures!

Will 2009 be the year for this? Hmm, hard to tell, certainly not the first half of 2009. For now, it seems large purchases of mortgages and treasuries are in the works. But by the end of 2009 we may see the fed pull back the reins on some of the lending facilities. I wonder how the system will react?

Back to 2009, what is interesting to me is when the markets may start pricing in future rate hikes and removal of credit facilities. In short, how long does the fed keep rates between 0% - 0.25%? I would expect for at least most of 2009 as macro data is lagging and will continue to deteriorate as an after effect of this credit tsunami. As long as unemployment is rising, and the job losses mounting, the fed will remain in 'stimulate' mode. If they hike significantly earlier then the lagging unemployment's peak, well, Volcker probably smells something he doesn't like!

STOCK MARKETS - Exactly one year ago I predicted a negative year for stocks and it turned out I was way too optimistic! With markets down about 35% or so for the calendar year, we have to wonder whether the market has discounted the current deflationary environment. We also need to wonder how all the fiscal and monetary stimulus will ultimately help to reflate the stock market.

Given such a huge move down already, I'm not as bearish on stocks as I would normally be for 2009. However, I do expect a few more rounds of forced selling amid hedge fund redemptions and more deleveraging before all is set and done. Lets not forget about all the securities on review for downgrade, and the lagging nature of Moodys and S&P to downgrade the credit rating of corporations. This will most likely occur during the first half of 2009. I think 2009 will see many HF's close their doors and who knows how many more "Madoff Scams" there are out there yet to reveal themselves; the cockroach theory usually proves correct in times like these. Making a call today on where we may be at the end of 2009 is so tough, given the highly volatile markets and the huge selloff we had already. But this is a game and I'll play.

I expect stocks to have a rough first half, but perhaps find a bottom sometime before mid year. Whether we muddle around for a while, who knows, but by mid year I would say most of the volatility will be over and it will be slow and boring for a year or two afterward as we deal with the stubbornly lagging macro headwinds and main street pain of this crisis. It will seem like the economic data doesn't get any better and most analysts will look for a silver lining in a 'slowing down of the bad data', for signs of stability.

All in all, I would expect us to end 2009 slightly negative again, because I would think that any rounds of forced selling will overpower any rounds of rallying later in the year. But, time is what we need and I am getting less and less bearish as this cycle plays out. Just keep in mind one very important thing:

Those buying stocks because P/E valuations seem cheap as stock prices plunged, watch out for the 'E' in 'P/E'! Sure, stocks may look cheap now based on already lowered analyst expectations for future profits, but one thing is for sure and that is we have NOT seen the full effect on corporate profits from this very severe and drawn out credit crisis. I fear that real earnings in the future may be significantly lower than already lowered analyst expectations, and that means the valuations that appear cheap today, really aren't!
The bigger question is when stocks have 'priced in' the full effects of this severe and deep economic slowdown. Out of all asset classes, I would expect treasuries to perform well for first half (as the silliness phase of the bubble continues) of 2009 and precious metals to outperform as well. I would not be surprised to see financials lead a rally towards the end of 2009. But I just don't see any reason for anything other than bear market rallies when we don't know the depth of this credit crisis yet.

JOBS - The dark days of job losses are here and I think Manhattan is in the early stages of our local slowdown. Expect ugly jobs reports from Manhattan firms for the first half of 2009, especially as forced merger deals close and headcount is reduced.

As Manhattan handles its own slowdown, the combination of tight credit, frugality & tough business conditions are likely to spread to retail businesses leading to further job losses as the year goes on. I'm not too excited about 2009 from a jobs standpoint and this is the sad after effect of the death of wall street. Nobody's job is safe and there will be victims here.

If Manhattan real estate continues to be pressured, consumers in this city, especially the big spenders, will feel less wealth and that negative wealth effect is likely to cause frugality to set in. As a nation of spenders and credit, saving is not the best dynamic for businesses. If frugality sets in as Jeff & I expect it to as this process plays out, many of Manhattan's businesses will see a noticeable drop in demand for their products/services. Nobody likes a slowdown, and this cycle is no different. But lets keep it real here and understand that this is my opinion on what I see for 2009. Trust me, I hope I am proven wrong in hindsight!

INFLATION - We are fighting a deflationary spiral right now and the fed/treasury are throwing everything they have to stop it! Time will tell how successful they are. While markets will do what markets want to do, it's proven to be very difficult to control market forces by intervention. While the powers that be try to inflate, I think most of 2009 will show deflation continuing. The question is the back end of this cycle and if inflation will rear its ugly head as a result of super aggressive fiscal and monetary stimulus. I think that is a late 2010 - 2011 problem, at the earliest. Expect 2009 to show the after effects of this deflationary environment.

While treasuries prove to be the safest bet in times of deflation, I think the treasury market is in the 'silliness' stage of a bubble. How long it lasts and how big it inflates to is anyone's guess, but I do think when the party stops we could very well see a sharp and fast surge in rates. However, I would not put the treasury bubble in the same category as the tech bubble of the late 90s or oil bubble of 2007/2008. It may last much longer than these bubbles did before rolling over. Looking ahead, the question is how this ultimately affects borrowing costs just as the economy tries to recover from this crisis. It could be a big unintended consequence of polices taken to combat this deflationary spiral.

DISCLAIMER
- I'm not always right, I am no messiah, and I never ever claim to be! UrbanDigs.com, since the very beginning, has been a way for me to 'speak out' on how I feel about the macro economy and the Manhattan residential real estate marketplace. I tell it how I see it, and nothing more. My true background is with a momentum style of equity trading as I was a NASDAQ equities trader with Tradescape from 1998-2004 and have been following the markets since 1990. I learned a lot along the way and I feel I have a much deeper understanding now, than I did 10 years ago when I started trading professionally, but that does NOT mean you should make any investment decisions based on what I say here! Talk to your financial adviser for that. As for buying or selling real estate here in Manhattan, no one can time the market perfectly and you should always take into account your unique financial situation and needs. So, if you are thinking of buying now, consider your job security, liquid assets, salary, timeline to own, and whether you can afford a product that meets your needs rather than day trade housing and waiting for the perfect entry point! Real estate investment decisions are very personal and everyone's situation is unique. With that said, I welcome any comments regarding what I said above!!

Comments (45)

"I am no messiah"

Only the true Messiah denies His divinity!

Don't sell yourself short, Noah.

Posted by anon | December 24, 2008 10:13 AM

Spot on Noah. What do you think is could be the biggest surprise factor or wild card in your views? From macro perspective, all this deficit spending will have to be financed and will result in either higher t-rates or lower dollar. As someone sitting on cash since 2006, I don't mind higher interest rates, but I am really worried about dollar. Its also tough to hedge against dollar crisis - i mean how much gold or yen can you buy?

thanks for thoughtful commentary and happy holidays.

Posted by ABType | December 24, 2008 10:27 AM

anon - lol!

Posted by Noah | December 24, 2008 10:30 AM

ABType - hmm, great question. The biggest surprise would be a prolonged equity rally, maybe because of all the unprecedented stimulus, both fiscal and monetary taken so far.

While I take the position that there is a reason why such measures are being taken, and that is because things are really really bad, a prolonged equity rally would surprise me most.

After that, seeing the treasury bubble bust and a surge in rates would not be shocking because I kinda think its inevitable, the big question is when it happens and how the masses exit their huge positions at the same time, and who will pick up slack.

If its from internal demand, i.e., the fed via quantitative easing, that is very dollar negative and I would expect precious metals to do their thing that everyone thought they would do in 2008 when the crisis was in full force.

Another surprise would be seeing commercial stabilize, and not much losses on books from this. I think 2009 will be awful for commercial and CMBS held by banks resulting in big writedowns. If this doesnt happen, I would be surprised given all the empty strip malls, commercial developments, office space, etc..

Your very welcome!! Happy holidays to you too!

Posted by Noah | December 24, 2008 10:35 AM

Thanks Noah,
you are always a breath of fresh air
in a world of halitosis.
given the need for property tax increases,
do you think that 421a's in condos that
have yet to receive their c/o, will
be screwed with?

Posted by Anonymous | December 24, 2008 11:12 AM

Noah,

I was just curious as to what you think will happen in the immediate suburbs like northern NJ, Westchester, etc. In regards to your predictions, do you think they will follow the Manhattan market or the rest of the country?

Posted by Donald | December 24, 2008 11:22 AM

Anon - thanks!! Tryin my best to keep it real.

Hmm, great question. I dont think they are shielded by property tax increases for everyone, but I just dont know if the 421A puts them in a special class. I would think NO, and even they see the rise, with the 421A benefits continuing as usual.

Posted by Noah | December 24, 2008 11:23 AM

Hi Noah-

How do you square your predictions for real estate prices with the huge number of new apartments coming on line as a result of the change in the rules covering tax abatements?

True, you say much of pricing is demand driven. And perhaps the fall in prices to date are somewhat forward looking, so they incorporate the change. But even with these two points, I think you have been arguing in the past for a bigger fall than another 10% to 15%.

Thanks, and great blog!
Rob

Posted by Rob Cyran | December 24, 2008 11:23 AM

Donald - I think they are leading the Manhattan marketplace and further into the downcycle than Manhattan.

I dont conduct business there so I am not too comfortable commenting in depth on those markets, but I think they have experienced a lack of buyers for the past 12 months at least, and asking prices are below peak levels. Manhattan asking prices are for most part not below peak levels yet, getting there, but not the whole. Im waiting to see when this market has the majority of asking prices 10-15% below peak levels, we are not there yet.

back to your question, I think they will continue their correction as Manhattan corrects.

Posted by Noah | December 24, 2008 11:26 AM

I know this is off topic, but check this out. The TARP application that banks fill out is only 2 pages long! 2 pages!!


http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/reports/applicationguidelines.pdf

Posted by Donald | December 24, 2008 12:17 PM

Rob - well, Im only looking 12 months ahead. We can certainly drift lower after that adding to the down cycle.

I have focused more on macro trends in my discussions, reports, and predictions lately, and I think thats the area to stay to monitor the severity of this downturn. There will be more units hitting the market for a host of reasons beyond new dev resales, for macro reasons.

THANKS for kinds words!! Happy holidays.

Posted by Noah | December 24, 2008 12:18 PM

Thanks Noah for your insight. On the bleak job predictions: I know a few people with high seniority (one exactly at 25 years at an insurance company in Manhattan) who were told that December 31st was their "last day." This is just after their company sponsored anniversary parties around Thanksgiving. Thanks a lot.....

Posted by Mr Mogul | December 24, 2008 1:22 PM

MrMogul - ugh, very sad and unnerving story. Unfortunately there will be a lot of these I think over 2009. I hope Im wrong

Posted by Noah | December 24, 2008 2:04 PM

Hi Noah,
I really enjoy and agree with all your predictions and apologies for the long comment that follows. I just want to add something to all of this that has to do with the local residential real estate picture as it relates to the "Island of Manhattan". Since 2005 I felt that Manhattan Residential Real Estate has been somewhat feeding off of itself. That is to say there may have been too much money going around the real estate support establishment to allow for anything but a rosy picture. Lenders, mortgage brokers, real estate brokers, local publications/media, and vested individuals, just to name a few industries, boosted optimism in the face of a known national bubble and deteriorating fundamental picture. Through their optimism and facilities, facts on the ground were inflated to account for another approximate 12% increase between the national market peak in early 2005 and the Manhattan market peak somewhere in 2007.

I am not crying foul on any specific establishment as this happens in every bubble and I am not here to fight it, but rather trying to illustrate that it is conceivable that Manhattan undoes what the national economy did in 3 years, in 18 months. As you correctly pointed out, we are not immune to any of the fundamentals, but we sure as hell felt like we were for 3 years. Hence the reference to the "Island of Manhattan" mentality. So the one point of contention with your logic, is I see us going down fast and furious for the remainder of next year, as the market separates itself from the rosy picture that it was holding onto, and enters a full on accelaration of price declines into the remainder of 2009.

The best way to validate my theory is by showing the difference between how Manhattan has behaved since 2005 and how the immediate suburbs and neighboring boroughs have behaved. That is to say the latter did not do as well. The second best way to validate this theory, is simply by looking at how hard some sellers (that can afford to) still hold onto the "Island of Manhattan" theory.

Thanks in advance for your foresight.
LR


Posted by LR | December 24, 2008 5:11 PM

Your estimate of asking prices falling another 10 to 15% is wildly optimistic.

Posted by Developer | December 24, 2008 6:32 PM

You gave an excellent summation of the challenges facing Manhattan real estate in 2009. I completely agree with your assessment. I really have nothing to contribute to 2009 predictions beyond what you have said, except for the following:

2009 will be the year when the idea of Manhattan as "family friendly" comes to an end. It will take years for this dynamic to fully play out, but when it does, New York City will have redefined itself yet again. As real estate prices fall, and Wall Street gets further degraded, and unemployment increases, Manhattan will become more affordable, but in some respects less desirable, as quality of life is compromised due to a sagging economy. Over time, as more families flee to the comfort, economy, schools, and spaciousness of the suburbs (thus generating a mini-bubble in pricing for certain suburbs), more and more young people from across the country will come to Manhattan "chasing their dream."
We will see New York City once again viewed as a chic, artistic, progressive, gritty city that welcomes misfits, artists, and young people from across our country. While this dynamic will not help to prop up real estate, it will help to revive and stimulate new businesses, as well as strengthening restaurants, independent stores, and the arts.
By the end of Bloomberg's third term, he will successfully sheparded us through the recession/financial crisis, and into the new era of Manhattan as a young, artsy, edgy, but more gritty city. Where we have been a city of money excess, we will return to a time, not unlike the mid-late 80's where finance is co-equal, or subordinate, to a more economically and culturally diverse city that is grittier, but more multi-faceted..
Just a thought.

Posted by mh23 | December 25, 2008 8:52 AM

You call it as you see it Noah, great post once again, well thought out and logical.

It may seem strange, but I think many of your numbers, such as a 25-40% drop in prices from peak levels are probably on the overly optimistic side.

Like you, I don't wish it to be so, just feel the larger macro problems are themselves so much worse than we've yet learned.

As you have said there is no free lunch, and with the root problem locally and worldwide too much debt, leveraged assets with little or no collateral left in many cases, and the spiral of deflation inevitable in my opinion....I just don't see a way out without a much bigger collapse. I like the way Mish summarizes the big picture on his 12/23 post:

(To paraphrase Mish)...The current policies that the Central Banks and Treasuries of most western countries have embarked on are the current academically sanctioned approach of trying to patch cracks in a dam with more water. And then he offers the 8th grade rebuttal:


"The average 8th grader understands that one cannot continually spend more money than he has.
The average homeowner who has been foreclosed on understands that buying more house than he could afford vs. wages earned was a very bad idea.
The average economics professor afflicted with the Keynesian-Virus thinks that it is possible to spend one's way out of a fiscal crisis.
The average economics professor afflicted with the Monetarist-Virus thinks that it is possible to inflate one's way out of a fiscal crisis by destroying the currency.
The average congressional representative believes in the free lunch theory of spending many multiples of what is collected in taxes.


Why is it that the average 8th grader has a better grasp of economics and fiscal sanity than the average economist and the average member of Congress?"

Anyway, like you hope I'm wrong, but see a lot of pain over the next few years.

Posted by Aquarian | December 25, 2008 11:04 AM

Bravo on your piece.

My only hesitation is the same shared by many of the posts that you are too conservative in your estimate of falling prices. If the blows to the economy in ’08 were good for a 15%-25% drop in prices, does a modest 10%-15% estimated correction adequately account for the generational devastation that awaits us in ’09? I appreciate that the chair you occupy places you in somewhat of a conflict that may temper your thinking, but honestly aftering reading your sobering prognostications and particularly the witches brew of negatives for Manhattan, I was expecting to see a more “keepin’ real” number.

Thanks again for your great insights.

Posted by monte | December 26, 2008 12:23 AM

Aquarian/Monte - well, I think this downturn will last a few years and then muddle around for a few years, I see no V.

So, the expectations I laid out here are for where I think we may be at the end of 2009. Reports are lagging so they wont show the 15-25% down prob until midway through 2009, way late. Once the new dev closings stop getting counted, and the reports pretty much only show existing resales, it will be very interesting to compare y-o-y numbers.

Things are still frozen in creditville, banks arent lending much, consumers are tapped, businesses are struggling and 2009 will be a wake up call to every economist/analyst that didnt quite get it to begin with.

Lets just hope we get through this without mortgaging the next 30 years, if we didnt already.

Posted by Noah | December 26, 2008 9:27 AM

Please enter on http://VideoclipManele.blogspot.com
Thank you very much from Romania [Europe]!

Posted by Sakin19 | December 26, 2008 9:59 AM

Noah- As usual 1000% correct. I'm a broker and it's a breath of fresh air to meet someone like you, who actually reports the truth.

That said, I'll also second what some other commenter have said, I think the drop on the down side will be far worse than 40% off the peak.

Simply put, people have no money. So much of this garbage real estate, let's take two condominiums: 325 Fifth and 200 Chambers, was essentially bought on speculation and with the bogus Alt A loans.

What are these people going to do when it comes time to refinance and their junk real estate which they bought at say, 1400psf, appraises at $800psf. It's foreclosure time in Manhattan. I've been in this racket for over 20 years, and like you, I'm honest, I tell these lying brokers, if you say a property is worth what you're listing it for, bring someone who'll write a check.

Guess what, no one is coming. I just had a client offer 15% off the ask on a piece of garbage apartment and the moron broker said, "that offer just doesn't excite me". Can you believe it.

Oh well. Dear buyer, that 1BR condo you've been dreaming of which some idiot is trying to palm off for $1.1, how does $500,000 sound?

Just let the pain intensify. Let this garbage sit on the market. Then they'll be begging for anything.

And if you doubt what I'm writing. Read this report.

http://www.designs.valueinvestorinsight.com/bonus/pdf/T2_Housing_Analysis.pdf


An Overview of the Housing/Credit Crisis And Why There Is More Pain to Come

T2 Partners LLC T2 Accredited Fund, LP Tilson Offshore Fund, Ltd. T2 Qualified Fund, LP
December 18, 2008
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Posted by Anonymous | December 26, 2008 11:34 AM

anon - thanks for the link. Great info!!

Posted by Noah | December 26, 2008 11:43 AM

Why do you say that 325 5th is a "grbage apartment"? I just looked at the listing on Street Easy and it is quite nice. Not to mention there is an indoor pool. No offense, but you seem to have no idea what a "garbage apartment" is.

Posted by Donald | December 26, 2008 2:34 PM

Wow Noah, you can't win. LOL. First they accuse you of trying to crash the Manhattan market by predicting that prices will go down. And now they accuse you of being too optimistic and not predicting that prices will fall by 25% + so that you don't lose your commissions...

Posted by Donald | December 26, 2008 2:38 PM

ha! lose lose I guess.

Posted by Noah | December 26, 2008 2:50 PM

That link from the previous commenter was pretty informative.

I am going to take Noah's 10%-15% decline prediction and double it to cover any additional losses I might occur, and start submitting bids for $800k apartments for $600k and see try to find those desperate sellers... wifey is getting restless.

Posted by Jac | December 26, 2008 3:22 PM

$600k offers on $800k apartments? My my, I hope you have a can of pepper spray because your going to make lots of enemies!

Posted by Donald | December 26, 2008 4:57 PM

the deals will not be concentrated in the one bed or walk up products - discounting will be fiercest where there is no liquidity (think $1mm and above, maybe more like $1.3mm or more). the folks who will get slaughtered are those who paid $2mm for 1,800SF and can't afford to keep it. they will take a 40% haircut to get out. the wildcard is whether or not one beds gets compressed back into the 200k to 300k range - but that just might not happen because of conventional mortgage availability. rule of thumb i think is if it was bought with a jumbo, its gonna get a jumbo haircut on the sale.

Posted by Fred | December 26, 2008 9:05 PM

Donald, Did you even read Noah's predictions for the economy? In any event, find me a seller today who can afford to have buyers as enemies. I suggest you consider a new script for the New Year if you're transactionally inclined.

Posted by monte | December 26, 2008 9:18 PM

I have a house in northern NJ that I am trying to sell and I have insulted my fair share of buyers, and I have absolutely no regrets. If I had the opportunity, I would do it all over again.

Also, in most cases, those who bought their apartments a long time ago can afford to be firm when it comes to their price because chances are a large chunk of their mortgage has already been paid off.

Posted by Donald | December 26, 2008 10:09 PM

I also think real estate in this city is going to be off by 40%+ from peak. Really, it will only put us back to where we were 4-5 years ago.

I just know of too many families that can no longer afford to live in this city. And it is not just the real estate, it is the whole cost of living. If you were in finance making between $500-$1.5m a year, you were probably living in a $1.5-$3m apartment, sending your kids to $25k/year day school with the nanny and part time help. Now without a job, the kids schools and cost of just living modestly are completely unsustainable. I think people are living in a rock if they think real estate in the city is not going to crumble.

The only way that real estate might not fall as much is if they massively deflate the dollar and inflation spikes radically. i'm not sure if anyone here really wants that, but that is a possible outcome. it would be healthier for everyone, though, if they just let this thing correct - as painful as that might be.

Posted by Anon | December 27, 2008 12:50 PM

Good post, as always, Noah.
Given the predicted decline of 10 - 15%, does anyone have any thoughts on what the decline in 2009 might be in Harlem and FiDi?

Posted by Fred S. | December 27, 2008 1:27 PM

Real eate is not going to "crumble" in NYC and I think you have to be dleusional to think it is. This is not San Diego where there is 5 years worth of inventory. In Manhattan, there is only 11.7 months of inventory. So let's see: 5 years vs. 11 months: which market is "crumbling"?

Posted by Donald | December 27, 2008 3:40 PM

Donald - well, its kinda crumbling now, but you are right, it is not like San Diego or Miami where there are gluts of inventory.

In Manhattan, I tend to look at buy side confidence as a leading indicator and less to supply or months of supply. Its all about the buyers.

For example, on the way up to 9,000 listings since AUGUST, reached mid OCT, the market started its trek down. Supply is an effect of buyers disappearing. Related, of course, but we don't need 2 yrs or 4 yrs or 5 yrs of supply to so call 'crash'. If this market falls 40% in 12 months time, I would call that a mini crash, and I doubt inventory will ever reach the levels in Miami, or San Diego. Its all about buyers, and what they can afford or willing to pay. Time will tell.

As always, thanks for comments!

Posted by Noah | December 28, 2008 10:44 AM

Noah,

What about sell-side confidence? Doesn't that have an impact on the direction of the market? If sellers are confident about the market, they are not going to accept lower offers. But if they think that the end of the world is around the corner, they are going to dump their apartments as quickly as possible for whatever price they think they can get.

For instance, someone who works in finance might be more willing to take a lower offer because their job is probably not secure (a fact they know). But a doctor is probably not as worried about their job and might hold out for a better offer.

Posted by Donald | December 28, 2008 2:00 PM

Of course, yes, it does! but the problem with focusing on the sell side is the psychological forces and the role that plays in the downturn cycle. First the buy side confidence declines, THEN at a lag, the sell side confidence declines. Both play a role, but buy side forces the hand. For sellers more in core of crisis, they will be more motivated to sell than outside the core.

It starts out this way, and deals are not done because sellers outside the core, dont think their place declined that much. And as time goes on, the asset declines more and the seller gets frustrated and after 1-2 or -4, who knows how many years, the sell side fundamental changes and a sale has to be made at a lower price. Usually this is how the re downturn evolves, and each swing, either up or down, tends to last years. The outsiders will be the ones forced to sell in medium term

We are very early in the downturn cycle and real pain is just getting going on the labor front. When jobs pick up and trend is clearly on the rise, then maybe the seller can get away with this willingness to wait for a better price

Posted by Noah | December 28, 2008 4:36 PM

125k is the new 250k in Manhattan. there will be no meaningful bonus pools for a while. the grease as they say has left the kitchen. as Anon stated above, it's the entire value proposition that Manhattan has to deal with. this btw in my opinion will impact the rental pool as well. not sure what the current vacancy rates are but it feels significantly higher - our bldg has at least half a dozen vacancies (out of 70), which is frankly unusual given the location.

Posted by Fred | December 28, 2008 5:06 PM

you may be right....or not. But i do appreciate your candor and honesty.
I thought you may be interested in reading Antal Fekete editorials (google it up) regarding deflation and other stimulating subjects as the gold basis. how the printing press is actually fueling deflation (yes) thru bond investing...
happy new year

Posted by stephane | December 28, 2008 10:05 PM

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Read It. http://edsk.org/

Posted by Adam Smith | December 30, 2008 6:06 AM

You say " we are down 15%-25% right now from peak, I would expect 2009 to continue this downtrend and likely see prices fall another 10%-15% on top of where we are right now, by years end. That would make the range between 25%-40%,"

My question why are we not seeing the drop? It seems to me that the inventory hasn't moved much and prices are still similar to what it was in the peak, and no where near 15-25% drop you say has already happened. Wonder 25% to 40 will ever happen. I have been looking for a junior 4 in UES for the last 2 years and i see prices in general same as it used to be in mid 2007...avg 750K for doorman even today...may be inventory hasn't moved, but there is no data to suggest that it has fallen up to 25% already and will fall upto 40%. may be no one is buying, but no one is selling either....

Posted by makalu | December 30, 2008 8:50 AM

makalu - are you looking at asking prices to make your statement?

Im talking about WHERE CONTRACTS ARE BEING SINGED by my deals, brokers I talk to, appraisers I talk to, lenders I talk to, etc...all confirms my statements.

These did NOT close yet

Posted by Noah | December 30, 2008 9:10 AM

Makalu - I think you are way off with your 750K avg for JR4/doorman/ues statement. Now if you want XXX mint, high floor, park/river views, fine, you may be right. But lets be a bit more open here. Anything over 3.5 rooms...in ues..

625K
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1330461

685K
http://www.c21nyc.com/listing_details.aspx?lid=593855

588K
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1218019

695K
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1441581

575K
http://www.halstead.com/detail.aspx?id=1612744

699K
http://www.sothebyshomes.com/nyc/sales/0016110#floorplans

555K
http://www.modlingroup.com/brokerwebsite3/Code/sales_detail.asp?listing_id=78885

595K
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1281682

695K
http://www.prudentialelliman.com/1057239

675K
http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1408207

AND SO MANY MORE!

Posted by Noah | December 30, 2008 9:25 AM

Many thanks for a great write up Noah!

Any predictions on Manhattan rental market in Q1 of 2009? Do you think the prices will keep going down at least till end of February and then start to go up as usual?

Thanks again,
Mark

Posted by Mark | December 30, 2008 9:56 AM

Mark,

I would think it continues to soften, and maybe get a bit stronger around AUG/ SEPT

Posted by Noah | December 30, 2008 12:43 PM

ok, i am in full panic mode. signed a contract on a new apt last march, closed in july, and everything imploded from there. what do you think things will be like 5 to 7 years down the road which would be my selling point.

Posted by Anthony | January 29, 2009 2:11 PM

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