Fisher's Debt-Deflation Theory

Posted by Noah Rosenblatt on October 23, 2008 at 9.26 AM

A: Yale economist, and skull & bones member, Professor Irving Fisher is known for a lot of economic principles such as the Fisher Equation, the Price Index, the Phillips Curve, the Money Illusion, and the Debt-Deflation theory which I want to discuss today. For a bio on Professor Irving Fisher, click here. Although he did warn of the 'permanently high plateau' of stock prices only a few days before the great crash of 1929, he believed a recovery was just around the corned and as such, managed to lose most of his personal wealth and his reputation in the multi-year selloff during the great depression. Following the destruction, Fisher analyzed the Great Depression and came up with his debt-deflation theory. Try to take your time reading the below highlighted points, and then take a step back at the environment we are in today and decide for yourself if the theory holds water in todays complex intertwined system of finance.

fisher-irving.jpgThe entire theory is provided in the link below. What you need to know is that this theory was formulated after an analysis of the Great Depression, and refers to the 'perfect storm' of events that must combine at the right time to have caused such an event. The entire paper is a worthwhile read. As in the paper, I will refer to certain points by the number they are referred to in the paper, so you can easily find them on the link below.

Professor Irving Fisher's Debt-Deflation Theory

19. I venture the opinion, subject to correction on submission of future evidence, that, in the great booms and depressions, each of the above named factors (over-production, under-consumption, over-capacity, price-dislocation, maladjustment between agricultural and industrial prices, over-confidence, over-investment, over-saving, over-spending, discrepancy between saving & investment) has played a subordinated role as compared with two dominant factors, namely over-indebtedness to start with and deflation following soon after; also that where any of the other factors do become conspicuous, they are often merely effects or symptoms of these two. In short, the big bad actors are debt disturbances and price level disturbances.

While quite ready to change my opinion, I have, at present, a strong conviction that these two economic maladies, the detb disease and the price-level disease (or dollar disease), are, in the great booms and depressions, more important causes than all others put together.

20. Some of the other and usually minor factors often derive some importance when combined with one or both of the two dominant factors.

Thus over-investment and over-speculation are often important; but they would have far less serious results were they not conducted with borrowed money. That is, over-indebtedness may lend importance to over-investment or to over-speculation.

The same is true as to over-confidence. I fancy that over-confidence seldom does any great harm except when, as, and if, it beguiles its victims into debt.

21. Disturbances in these two factors -- debt and the purchasing power of the monetary unit -- will set up serious disturbances in all, or nearly all, other economic variables.

22.
No exhaustive list can be given of the secondary variables affected by the two primary ones, debt and deflation; but they include especially seven, making in all at least nine variables, as follows: debts, circulating media, their velocity of circulation, price levels, net worths, profits, trade, business confidence, interest rates.

24. Assuming, accordingly, that at some point of time, a state of over-indebtedness exists, this will tend to lead to liquidation, through the alarm either of debtors or creditors or both. Then we may deduce the following chain of consequences in nine links:

1) Debt liquidation leads to distress selling and to...
2) Contraction of deposit currency, as bank loans are paid off, and to a slowing down of velocity of circulation. This contraction of deposits and of their velocity, precipated by distress selling, causes...
3) A fall in the level of prices, in other words, a swelling of the dollar. Assuming, as above stated, that this fall of prices is not interfered with by reflation or otherwise, there must be...
4) A still greater fall in the net worths of business, precipitating bankruptcies, and...
5) A like fall in profits, which in a 'capitalistic', that is, a private-profit society, leads to concerns which are running at a loss to make...
6) A reduction in output, in trade and in employment of labor. These losses, bankruptcies, and unemployment, lead to...
7) Pessimism and loss of confidence, which in turn lead to...
8) Hoarding and slowing down still more the velocity of circulation.

The above eight changes cause (9) Complicated disturbances in the rates of interest, in particular, a fall in the nominal, or money, rates and a rise in the real, or commodity, rates of interest.

Evidently debt and deflation go far toward explaining a great mass of phenomena in a very simple logical way.

27. In actual chronology, the order of the nine events is somewhat different from the above 'logical' order, and there are reactions and repeated effects. The following table of our nine factors, occurring and recurring (together with distress selling), gives a fairly typical, though still in adequate, picture of the cross-currents of a depression in the approximate order in which is is believed they usually occur:

debt-deflation.jpg

31. The two diseases act and react on each other. Pathologists are now discovering that a pair of diseases are sometimes worse than either or than the mere sum of both, so to speak. Just as a bad cold leads to pneumonia, so over-indebtedness leads to deflation.

32. And, vice versa, deflation caused by the debt reacts on the debt. Each dollar of debt still unpaid becomes a bigger dollar, and if the over-indebtedness with which we started was great enough, the liquidation of debts cannot keep up with the fall of prices which it causes. In that case, the liquidation defeats itself. While it diminishes the number of dollars owed, it may not do so as fast as it increases the value of each dollar owed. Then, the very efforts of individuals to lessen their burden of debts increases it, because of the mass effect of the stampede to liquidate in swelling each dollar owed. The more the debtors pay, the more they owe.

Noah here. So lets see, first off over-indebtedness and purchasing power of the monetary unit lead to deflation. We certainly had that over the 7-8 years or so as the dollar crashed against other major currencies and credit went parabolic with debt levels rising enormously. This lead to an imbalance of the 9 variables listed above, especially debt liquidations forcing a seizing up of the very marketplace where structured debt products traded. That led to a reduced velocity of circulation, or less lending. Which led to more debt liquidation. Which led to a fall in security prices, and then commodity prices. All at the same time, the dollar has strengthened, which is in-line with this debt-deflation theory!

Clearly, right now, we are in forced liquidation mode, commodities have collapsed, and the dollar has surged which would put us around Level V or VI of the above noted chain of events or consequences of debt-deflation. Keep in mind this paper was written some 70 years ago, yet fits fairly well with our complex system of finance in place today!

As you can see, I dig learning! Thoughts?

Comments (12)

Great post - a world apart from the conspiracy theory post that still has me scratching my head.

One thought, it seems like item X in the list actually already happened or is still in the process of happening. I would put it somewhere before VI or V this time around.

Also, VI is repeated in the diagram.

Posted by OT | October 23, 2008 11:31 AM

OT - thanks. Yea the conspiracy thing was just weekend entertainment. It was meant to make your head spin! It made mine.

Yes, I noticed that as well. I also replaced the image removing the VI..Keep in mind that this theory was done 70 years ago in a much different world. However, the similarities to today given how complex our system is and how fast information spreads is amazing.

I think the fact that we live in a very fast information driven world, made runs on some IB's, whether it was rumor based or not, much faster than back in the 30s.

Posted by Noah | October 23, 2008 11:44 AM

Noah:

We are seeing rising unemployment, a slowing of the velocity of money and a decrease in profits. So you could make the arguement, to a certain extent, that we are in stage VI to VII, although how far in we are into these levels is yet to be seen. I have been fortunate enough to keep my job on a desk and I can tell you that the ALT A market is facing a dire outlook, with recasts ramping up in 2009 and staying elevated through 2011. This market is 5 times bigger than what subprime is and the avg loan size is about 2 times larger. Its pretty scary stuff.

Posted by Brian23 | October 23, 2008 1:27 PM

I imagine that Ben's great objective in pumping cash into the system is frankly to avoid the Hoarding stage. The further along we get in this thing the clearer it is becoming: the survivors will be liquid and the sufferers stuck in fixed assets (including real estate). On another note Noah, a friend who works at Halstead commented that the bear market for Manhattan resi could be a ten or thirteen year cycle. Not sure why '13' other than it's a cute number, but any thoughts on the potential time frame for this thing? Still waiting for Toll Brothers to get real on their $1,000 PSF Hoboken properties......

Posted by Fred | October 23, 2008 2:26 PM

not sure how long, but it could certainly be a while. Def 2-4 years at the least. Thing is, we are about to enter a world of rebuilding our financial system, and are still in unwinding mode, so we dont know when the pain will end yet for stocks and housing. Plus, Im sure there will be a few more big surprises left.

I dont see how C surivives in its current form, but they cant fail either.

Posted by Noah | October 23, 2008 2:39 PM

"Assuming, as above stated, that this fall of prices is not interfered with by reflation or otherwise"

To me this is one of the key points in the excerpts above. Governments around the world are obviously trying to interfere with the price deflation and reflate. Ben Bernanke actually studied Fisher and the depression and is acutely aware of the negative feedback loops of deflation as are the Japanese. I am trying to figure out if the medicine is better or worse than the disease....we're gonna find out.

Posted by jeff | October 23, 2008 2:44 PM

Jeff - thanks for pointing out that key phrase. Yes, clearly the fed is doing everything they can to put out this deflation wildfire, but it just goes to show, you cant stop the bigger forces and you cant force banks to lend!

I just know that if I devote the next 6-8 months in positions that can benefit from the medicine, the trade would work out. But what will happen until then!

I still think gold is a 2-3 yr play as a hedge against the medicine and that shorting the long end of the curve is a 2-3 yr play, betting that the long end cant see these artificially low rates forever.

Posted by Noah | October 23, 2008 2:55 PM

Brian - I dont think we are in stage VII yet. Stage VII with its reduction in volume of stock trading, will occur AFTER the dust settles and markets finished the major adjustment. We are in that major adjustment now.

Lets say the bottom is DOW 7,000, S&P 750. We will just camp out there, with light volume, more downs day than up, but just not much happening. This is when people get sick & tired of lousy economic data, rising unemployment, and other pesky data that just seems like it wont go away

Posted by Noah | October 23, 2008 3:01 PM

Noah,
I think we would have been in VII in the past, now due to differentiating factors I think we're in VI heading toward VII quickly. Volume was very low for some time. I suspect the pick up has to do with many things, including hedge fund redemptions and 401K flights to money markets, neither of which could have occurred back in the day.

Great piece. I must confess I read it quickly. I'll have to spend more time on it, fascinating stuff.

Posted by brenda | October 23, 2008 9:36 PM

Noah, Jeff,

I know you guys are bearish, rightly so.

How about writing a piece for those who bought responsibly and can wait it out,... and what they should expect.

...you can't be thinking Manhattan will never see these prices again?

DW

Posted by dw | October 24, 2008 12:06 AM

DW - sure, Ill work on something for next week. Yes, I am bearish, that is no surprise for anyone reading my site for past few years.

Unfortunately though, I think Manhattan is in for an L shaped adjustment, that will play out over the next few years. Just as stocks are only recently adjusting to a credit crisis that is 15 months old, Manhattan will soon adjust to a crisis that is centered around wall street. Main street is always the last place to see the pain and we have not seen the full effect of job losses, individual distress (starting to see this now), forced sales, deleveraging of speculative foreign buying, overexposed buyers who bought too much house or who cashed out too much equity and took on too much debt, etc..

We are yet to see an absence of buyers, although I feel that we are getting closer to this phase. It seems the market is setting itself up for the price adjustment, yet we dont see it yet in asking prices. When the seller HAS to sell and CANT, that is when we will see it.

Manhattan is a great home for me, I love this city, I dont want to ever move, but it is not immune and this down cycle will be tough considering we reached peak credit, wall street is done, we have credit deflation, tons of regulations coming so this never happens again, and city budget issues that may affect quality of life or how this city is perceived as a place to live or raise a family.

Posted by Noah | October 24, 2008 7:45 AM

This is scary stuff. It looks all those have occurred except for the run on the banks since as far as I know there was only one run on the banks. So what do we do now? What is the best thing to do? Why did this happen? Do we have people monitoring the financial situation so that strategies can be put in place before it gets out of hand?

Evelyn Guzman
Debt Challenger

Posted by Evelyn Guzman | October 24, 2008 3:24 PM

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